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Anyone know if MAC is tapping the feds to start collection of these invasive species we keep hearing about??

Certified mainland fish... - What a concept!
 

spawner

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Sorry forgot about that, its free free to login I guess I would post the text here, is that legal?

andy
 
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Here is the article.

Predator moves in
Pretty but poisonous lionfish could hurt native species


By Gareth McGrath
Staff Writer
[email protected]


ONBOARD THE R/V CAPE FEAR | It was probably the worst-case scenario for researchers – and one that raises potentially worrisome questions about the future of important commercial fish species such as snapper, grouper and sea bass.

Four years ago, when reports started filtering in about divers seeing lionfish off the North Carolina coast, Paula Whitfield thought it was either a case of mistaken identity or a loner that had been released and somehow survived in the Gulf Stream’s warm waters.

But Ms. Whitfield, a fisheries biologist with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, said she wasn’t prepared for what researchers are finding during the 15-day mission off Southeastern North Carolina.

“They’re everywhere,” she said Tuesday roughly 50 miles southeast of Wrightsville Beach onboard the UNCW research vessel Cape Fear, as two more of the poisonous fish were brought aboard by divers.

Ms. Whitfield said researchers were hoping to find 30 specimens. But the two new lionfish brought the mission’s haul to nearly 80 – with another week of diving still to go.

“They’re not just doing well. They’re thriving.”

Atop the food chain
Native to tropical waters half a world away, the Indo-Pacific lionfish isn’t supposed to be here.

But with evidence mounting in recent years that pterois volitans has established a toehold along the Eastern Seaboard, Ms. Whitfield decided to conduct the first-ever Atlantic lionfish research mission.

The goal of the expedition, sponsored by NOAA’s Undersea Research Center at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, was to see how extensive the “invasion” by the lionfish is and what effect the interloper might be having on native species.

But the results so far aren’t encouraging, researchers said, and could warrant a shift from any thoughts of eradication to somehow developing a management plan for a fish that lives in waters more than 120 feet deep.

“It wouldn’t be bad if we were just finding adults,” said the research center’s science director, Tom Potts. “But now we’re finding juveniles and pregnant females as well.”

Spiny, colorful, poisonous and carnivorous, the lionfish could be the perfect invasive species.

As a top predator in its native Indian and South Pacific ocean habitats – a role filled by the grouper and snapper in local waters – the lionfish has no known natural enemies.

Ms. Whitfield said that largely explains its subdued behavior, which allows divers to approach to within a few feet of the fish.

“If not for the venomous spines, they’d be your dream fish because they’re so easy to work with,” she said.

But perhaps more worrisome is the lionfish’s breeding pattern.

Although little is known about the fish, with only one scientific study ever done, it’s believed lionfish spawn several times a season.

Holding a full ovary from a fish she was dissecting, NOAA research technician Christine Addison said each female can release between 5,000 and 20,000 eggs each spawning.

But it’s how the eggs are dispersed that could explain the lionfish’s rapid colonization of reefs and hard-bottom areas between Florida and Long Island, N.Y.

Because the eggs are buoyant, Ms. Addison said they could ride the warm waters of the Gulf Stream all along the Atlantic seaboard – one way lionfish or their eggs might have migrated up the coast from Florida, where many researchers think the first aquarium releases occurred.

“This fish seems to have everything going for it,” Ms. Whitfield said with a wry smile.

Lethal weapon
And then there’s the lionfish’s poisonous barbs, which could come as a surprise to local divers and local fish unused to coming across a lionfish in Atlantic waters.

Underwater research center technician Jay Styron knows firsthand the lionfish’s lethal spines, which radiate from the fish’s neck along with fins like a lion’s mane.

Last week while retrieving a lionfish captured at about 135 feet, he felt one of the fish’s barbs find a soft spot and slice through his wet suit.

“It initially felt a little worse than a bee sting,” Mr. Styron said. “But as the dive went on, it started to radiate out and really get painful.”

A week later, the stung area was still sensitive.

While uncomfortable, Mr. Styron said the sting didn’t force him to miss a dive.

Although the lionfish’s poison can produce localized and abdominal pains in people, officials say fatalities are rare. Recommended treatments include bathing the wound in hot water and using antibiotics.

New-found homes
If there’s anything positive that scientists have found so far, it’s that the fish is temperature sensitive.

Ms. Whitfield said lionfish have been found only in areas of warm water, with temperatures from the mid-60s or higher, in depths ranging from roughly 120 feet to an estimated 260 feet.

“That means they probably won’t get any closer than maybe 25 miles offshore,” she said.

But that leaves a huge swath of ocean for the lionfish to colonize.

“We’ve found them at 10 of the 12 places we’ve dived at, and in large numbers,” Ms. Whitfield said.

Especially worrisome is that the reefs and hard-bottom areas favored by the interloper are also the nursery grounds used by important commercial and sport fish, such as snapper and grouper.

“We now know they’re eating fish, not crustaceans or other shellfish,” Ms. Whitfield said as Ms. Addison removed a small jar from a cooler containing three young sea bass found in a lionfish’s stomach.

But with lionfish research in its infancy, it isn’t known which fish are the foreigner’s favorite foods and what impact the predator’s arrival might have on native species.

“We know so little that anything we do out here can only help,” Ms. Whitfield said.

Researchers plan to conduct more dives this winter to see how the lionfish are over-wintering off the Cape Fear Coast as water temperatures drop.

Ms. Whitfield also said she hopes to do some fish tagging and additional census data to gauge the newcomer’s density and geographic range.

But she said she can already draw one conclusion without any additional research offshore or at the NOAA lab in Beaufort.

“I think they’re here to stay,” she said. “Unfortunately, that’s something we can now say pretty confidently.”

Gareth McGrath: 343-2384
 

Kalkbreath

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If the eggs are buoyant.....that means they could quite easily have been relocated to the Atlantic via ballast water in ships. During the last decade record warm water would have allowed these fish to establish themselves in the normally cold Atlantic. The idea that they are being released by hobbyists seems odd, as large Lion fish are almost never refused by Local fish stores Nation wide.
 

JennM

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Kalkbreath":3cby9ffi said:
The idea that they are being released by hobbyists seems odd, as large Lion fish are almost never refused by Local fish stores Nation wide.

What if the hobbyist doesn't think to offer the fish back to a shop? I've known of several dealers in various geographical regions that have a "one way" policy - once you buy it, it's yours, period.

Given the amount of other domesticated animals that turn up in the wild, it's not that big of a stretch to figure that hobbyists are at least partly responsible. Florida is teeming with all kinds of parrots, Lorikeets, Iquanas, and a plethora of other non-native "wildlife"... not at all unlikely that fish count amongst the abandoned.

Jenn
 
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large Lion fish are almost never refused by Local fish stores Nation wide.

lol sez who ?

i've worked in 3 states where we've had to constantly refuse them, for a variety of reasons

the clientele for large (8"+) lions is a very small piece of market share, for many areas/stores (there are more 75's out there than 150's+)

lots of customers buy lions solely for the 'action/predator' factor, then get bored w/the lion, and try to return it, after a yr of stuffing it w/goldfish

larger predators are a larger drain on tank turnover/revenue (the cubage of a 30-40 gal tank filled w/20-30 clowns will generate better cash flow, and r.o.i., serves a larger slice of the customer base, and a predator in a tank then limits that tank to housing fish too large for the lion, either demanding a larger tank for better display w/other fish, or losing out on a tank that's smaller, that could house a maroon, flame hawk, juv. queen angel,some sankeyis, etc.).

larger fish, due to their higher price, are also a larger liability, due to the lower frequency of sale, compared to other smaller species, as well as to the juveniles of their own.

it's always been my experience in both salt and fresh that the larger fish market very typically is one of the smaller pieces of the retail pie

how many juvi lions do you sell vs. adults, kalk ?
 

Kalkbreath

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Okey ......lets test your logic. What percent of unwanted lionfish are released into the Atlantic? What percent are flushed ? What percent are returned to the local fish store? Being that ninty five percent of all Lionfish living in Aquariums are farther then 100 miles from the Atlantic ....how many hobbyists do you think drive their unwanted lionfish 100 plus miles to the beach and then return home. Very very few ..... How many millions of gallons of Pacific source ballast water are emptied into the Atlantic ocean each and every day ? the only reason more lionfish are turning up in the Atlantic is because the last five+ years the warmer then average water temps in the north east seaboard have alowed larval to reach adulthood. If hobbyists were the source the fish would have shown up in even greater numbers back in the 1980s and 1990s when lionfish imports were four time greater.
 

JennM

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Kalkbreath":217utcaj said:
how many hobbyists do you think drive their unwanted lionfish 100 plus miles to the beach and then return home. Very very few .....

Oh I don't know about that, Kalk. I have lectured MANY people about this type of thing. They go someplace and buy some juvenile fish like a Panther Grouper or a huge Angel (or a Lionfish...) and when I ask what they will do when they outgrow their 55-gallon tank, they tell me they will take it down to Panama City Beach or Destin and "set it free". That launches me on a tirade about that type of thing being 1)ILLEGAL, 2)I give them a short biology lesson about non-native species and their potential impact on the environment and 3)The chances of them carrying some pathogen that the local fish might not be able to resist... creating a pandemic.

That message gets through to some, but not to others. Of course then there are those who go down to the beach and bring back everything they can cram in a bait bucket with an air pump, to put in their tank, and when they find out that Crabzilla who was so cute on the beach, is eating all their livestock... they try to pawn it off on a store... :roll: Again, not safe or right to re-release even native species when they've been mixed in with others - refer back to that pathogen thing I mentioned...

We've got a large display and have taken in several huge fish that were ridiculously large for the displays they were in - of course they were bought as small specimens, and after a couple of years they got too big... but without an exit plan, it's irresponsible of hobbyists to buy fast-growing fish that get to an unmanageble size. Of course it's irresponsible of stores to sell them too... without informing the customer that a fish gets large.

Vitz' analysis is spot-on - you can do a LOT better both ethically and economically, by devoting that tank space to smaller more realistically-kept fish.

But if you think that people aren't smart enough or dumb enough to release their unwanted fishes into the ocean, think again -- I believe it happens quite a lot.

Jenn
 
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Kalkbreath":2dd4w87e said:
Okey ......lets test your logic. What percent of unwanted lionfish are released into the Atlantic? What percent are flushed ? What percent are returned to the local fish store? Being that ninty five percent of all Lionfish living in Aquariums are farther then 100 miles from the Atlantic ....how many hobbyists do you think drive their unwanted lionfish 100 plus miles to the beach and then return home. Very very few ..... How many millions of gallons of Pacific source ballast water are emptied into the Atlantic ocean each and every day ? the only reason more lionfish are turning up in the Atlantic is because the last five+ years the warmer then average water temps in the north east seaboard have alowed larval to reach adulthood. If hobbyists were the source the fish would have shown up in even greater numbers back in the 1980s and 1990s when lionfish imports were four time greater.

who's logic are you refering to ?

how many juvi lions do you sell vs. full grown, or near full grown adults ?
 

JeremyR

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People release fish HERE all the time. People are always asking if they can let their fish go here, and it's NOT TROPICAL. Pull your head out of the sand for once. Are you going to blame all the invasive freshwater fish down south on ship ballast too? Those oscars they catch on the fishing shows must be ship ballast. Definitely.
 

JeremyR

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Also, if your "logic" worked, there would be representatives of all similar spawning fish showing up in the atlantic.. and would not be limited to marine ornamentals.
 
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Kalkbreath":1avc4jdc said:
Okey ......lets test your logic. What percent of unwanted lionfish are released into the Atlantic? What percent are flushed ? What percent are returned to the local fish store? Being that ninty five percent of all Lionfish living in Aquariums are farther then 100 miles from the Atlantic ....how many hobbyists do you think drive their unwanted lionfish 100 plus miles to the beach and then return home. Very very few ..... How many millions of gallons of Pacific source ballast water are emptied into the Atlantic ocean each and every day ? the only reason more lionfish are turning up in the Atlantic is because the last five+ years the warmer then average water temps in the north east seaboard have alowed larval to reach adulthood. If hobbyists were the source the fish would have shown up in even greater numbers back in the 1980s and 1990s when lionfish imports were four time greater.


when did you take your survey ? :wink:
 

spawner

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Come on Kalk, your much smarter than this.

No, not ballast water, hobbyist or somebody in the fish biz. Have you ever dove off of Pompano Beach? Looks like the Pacific some days. Yellow Tangs, Purple Tangs, Triggers, Angels all don't belong. All in one place, around a few wholesalers and a ton of hobbyists. Just look at South Florida, Parrots, South American fish, Crocks, tons of stuff that humans have brought over. Lionfish are just the same. Doesn't really matter how they got here, they're here now.

Most likely cause, hurricane Andrew is one. That is about the time they showed up. “Poor little fishy, what do to, no power, why not set them free in the ocean”, happens all the time.

It takes years for them to become est. enough to notice them. They are here and breeding. I buy the fact that inverts, like Stenopus spinosus showing up here is ballast water, but not Lionfish.

Its rare for marine fish invasions to est. a population, but this one sure has.
 

Kalkbreath

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I hear about 70% of shark owners stating that they will take that baby nurse shark to the Sea World park when the fish out grows their tank .........How often does that actually happen? I guess the zebra mussels were released by hobbyists as well....? I am not stating that zero fish are released by hobbyists....I am pointing out that there are more ways then one to transplant a species. It takes quite a few individual fish to establish the species. There must be more then one source at play and because lion fish eggs are buoyant, ballast water could easily aid in their dispersal. Two activities have increased dramaticly in the last ten years . Dive operations seeking better attractions and Asian sea trade ..............I would venture that ballast water and dive shop operators have introduced more lion fish to the Atlantic in the last ten years then hobbyists.
 

Fish_dave

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Kalk,

I know that you like to try and stir up controversy but this one with the lion fish eggs and ballast water seems pretty far fetched to me.

Lion fish eggs float, that means they do not spend much time hanging around at 10 to 20 foot depths where most large ships pump in the ballast water from. They rarely take in surface water for ballast.

Also the volitan lion does not occur around Panama. The closest place for a ship to pick up volitan eggs would be somewhere around Tahiti. Volitan eggs hatch in 4 - 5 days if I am not mistaken. That is a pretty long time for the fry to last in a ships ballast holds untill it can be discharged up north in the gulf stream. As someone who has tried to raise the fry of many species of marine fish and knows how difficult it is in the best of conditions I really doubt that they would last long in a ships hold.

In my opinion, not an option. Making a case for hobbiyists dumping their pets seems pretty easy to do.

Dave
 

JennM

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Comparing Volitans to Zebra Mussels is like comparing apples to bowling balls.

Zebra Mussels can attach themselves to the hull of a vessel, as well as the spawn in ballast water.

I lived most of my life within 100 miles of the St. Lawrence Seaway... I've heard about all there is to hear about Zebra Mussels :roll:

If Volitans were being "imported" in ballast water, why is it that "now" they are becoming a problem? Those shipping lanes have been going for decades.

There are reasons why creatures like Red Eared Sliders (turtles) and Pirhanas are restricted here in GA... because stupid people abandon them into the wild.
 

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