mkirda":1m23soho said:
I respectfully disagree here. The industry CAN and DOES provide an ethically caught supply... just not EVERYONE in the industry does. Those of us throughout the chain of custody have to be discriminating in order to provide it.
Some of us are just willing to work a little harder, sometimes pay a little more (although not necessarily), and dig a little deeper, to procure a legitimate supply. There are probably not enough clean suppliers to supply every hobbyist, but apparently not every importer or retailer or hobbyist cares that much.
If more people cared about the sustainability of their supply, the manner in which organisms were captured/harvested/propagated, perhaps there would be a faster move to reform - but until there's a legal or financial incentive that's tangible, IMO it's not going to happen.
It does start with the consumer and work back, when you're on this side of the pond. I do agree that real change has to start with collectors, but until there's some sort of economic pressure from this end of the chain, reform is just a lofty idea.
Jenn
alfbennett":2lewjm4j said:
the price is not just dependent on the amounts of fish raised
between places like ora, and the loads of hobbyists who are now succeeding at home, t/r percs and ocellaris, by all accounts, should be far lower than wid caught in price
i some places it's far higher, others the same, and cheaper in, ime, relatively few places
one of the early 'rules' i adopted in retail is 'never prostitute your product', - by associating a lower dollar value for a product w/a consumer, i believe you cause a corresponding drop in how the consumer treats the product
what's cheap will be treated cheaply
this is why i'm not sure that lower prices are a good thing
there's also the issue of the other 'livestock' usually purchased to support the fish (live rock)
making fish cheaper, regardless of the source, may put more pressure on other reef resources
or not :wink:
ultimately, it's always what the markets will bear, for either side
either way, most of these issues are relevant more to the 80% that get into this hobby for the short term, and far less to the more advanced aquarists and reefers
i think it's possible to take about another 1/3 out of that 80% group to the next level (not easily, but possible), and steer the rest out of the hobby from the beginning
then i think that the same amount of money more or less would still circulate through the chain, at lower natural expense, and alot of our problems would go away
unless, like kalk, you think there aren't any problems
just my rambling abit on prices
p.s.
here's a thought:
hypothetically, all l/r is banned from the wild, and only aquacultured can be bought.it still takes the same amount of time for the rock to get colonized, if not longer than, natural lr, to an equal level of amount and variety of flora and fauna
assuming that's the only quality of rock that will be offered or bought, how long do you think it would take for the rock to become cheap, given that demand will outstrip supply initially for quite awhile, and the rock 'farmers' also need to cover their present investment/labor just in prepping the future rock crops? :wink:
coral is the same way
it may take a looong time, and alot of space/money, to etablish enough 'broodstock' to make mass production of a certain species by fragging possible
now- fish, in a sense, are easier, because they have a far greater reproductive potential/rate (by my own estimation, my breeding pair of gregory's must have produced well over a few thousand eggs every week - sometimes the male was tending multiple clutches of eggs from successive spawnings)
all of the mo farming technology is really in it's infancy, and like all technologies, once the ball gets rolling, the learning curve is non-linear, as long as the interest is pursued by a large enough group
if a demand for t/r fish continues to exist, and grow, i think it's realistic to think that we may have t/r tangs mass produced for the hobby in 10 yrs or less
some ornamentals have been bred, or spawned in aquariums longer than alot of people realize
Considering the current methods used to rais healthy coral, for the most part, I do not see how tank raised/propogated/fragged corals could become less expensive than wild corals. I do think, however, that if the demand placed on other reef inhabitants is damaging to wild populations (assuming that ornamental fish in and of its self is capable of creating that level of demand) than it would behoove conservation minded governments to creat a market where fish breeding in captivity is encouraged, and impossible to undersell.
there will always be "black market" livestock on hand and cheep, but honest retailers and wholesalers would try to keep it out of thier hands.
Market prices may actually go up, but I would be willing to pay anyway.
ok, I had more to say, but I am kind of rambling
there will always be "black market" livestock on hand and cheep, but honest retailers and wholesalers would try to keep it out of thier hands.
Market prices may actually go up, but I would be willing to pay anyway.
ok, I had more to say, but I am kind of rambling
Tankraised livestock is by far a better product..........But , the notion that wild collection is having any impact on the reefs is silly ........only the use of cyanide or crow bars has an ill effect on the health of the reefs....its not the tiny removal of the livestock that effects the health , its the methods used to collect that harm.......... ........The biggest obstacle facing mariculture of frags or live rock {farming} is that one storm and its all over . The guys at Reef Encrustation's in Deston Florida can attest to this. They placed ten years worth of base rock out on the seafloor to grow live rock ....only to have it all blasted to bits by Hurricane Andrew.a few month latter .......Total loss. The majority of the liveRock collected in Tonga and Fiji today is actually rubble broken off the reef from a Tsunami that hit those islands in the 1980s...........The same people that protect the Great barrier reef also protect the reefs of Tonga. Do you really think the Australian fisheries would allow live rock expors from Tonga if they felt its collection was a big deal?
Something else I find silly is that , the largest airline out of Fiji just went out of business..............that means fifty percent of the available airfreight space for live rock just disappeared!And most likely wont come back. Wonder if that has something to do with the only aquaculture liverock grower in Fiji wanting the end of wild rock exports ASAP ? :lol:
Kalkbreath":1jwqv74e said:
Once again kalk has given me an opportunity to disagree. A more accurate statement would be that tr clowns generally have much less disease problems than clowns taken from the wild. TR are also young clownfish.
As a clownfish breeder and someone who brings in wild clowns I maintain that not all clowns are created equal. Brooklynella susceptibility varies from species to species. Some species such as wild true A. sebae and A. chrysopterus almost always slime out. Others such as black A. polyumnus, A. clarkii, and A. perideraion rarely seem to break down. TR clowns are much more frequently misbarred than wild clowns that enter the trade. By all means purchase tr clowns, but don't forget about the survival of the fittest and the necessary culling that happens in nature.
Now here is a shocker. I actually think the overall quality of wild pseudochromis is better than much of the tr pseudos coming into the hobby. Disease is not really much of an issue with these hardy fish. I have seen quite a few tr P. fridmani that were too fat and less colorful than their wild cousins. Perhaps it is inbreeding or other man induced causes. Could it be from forced growth on unnatural foods? The big advantage aquaculture has is almost constant availability. Tank reared P. aldabrensis are much easier to aquire than wild ones. Wild P. fridmani are available much more often and for about the same price as the tr.
The question I have is will aquaculture strive to produce a product that is genetically equal to wild stock? Or will they take shortcuts in an effort to maximize profits. Who among us prefers the taste of a free range, bug fed chicken egg to the egg of a cage dwelling, hormone fed white hen?
I think the ocean is the perfect nursery. I believe that if people in third world countries can support their families in a sustainable manner from a harvest of nature's bounty it is wonderful and just. I say let the free market decide which product is superior.
Mitch
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Thank goodness tank-raised fish will never replace wildcaught fish!
Oooops,
Sacrilege again!
Is the taken for granted, unexamined idea to 'save the coral reefs for the benefit of the fisherman that live near them'...or to save them for Westerners who watch the discovery channel?
Perhaps its higher up in the esoteric ladder and they should be 'saved' PETA style...just because they are 'natural'.
If Westerners can feel good about themselves for putting the fisherman out of work...I don't get it. That won't save anything as the fisherman will eat one way or another and all the rangers and "look but don't touch folks" will never stop them. In fact, the purists notion of reserving nature for richer folks recreation, entertainment and 'need to feel good about themselves' will and has create a backlash and the pace of destruction may well accelerate.
Tank raised fish come to us largely from two big businesses now, advanced from serious cash and grant money. Far from being a harbringer of things to come, they arguably replace the need for wildcaught clownfish and dottybacks...and a scant list of gobies and misc fishes.
Of course if you dare keep a wild anemone with your tank-raised clowns, YOU WILL DENY GENERATIONS OF WILD CLOWNFISH TO COME...ERASING THE ALLEGED ECOLOGICAL BENEFIT of buying the TR clowns in the first place!
TR is fine...if it floats your boat, why not? But please don't pretend that our aim as an industry is to do without nature and just leave it for hotels and kayakers.
The avoidance of netcaught responsibility has already blackened the eye of this trade and proven how few really care about the oceans. Futhermore the failures of NGOs to even function in the area of fishermans training and conversion to peaceful methods has perpetuated the on-going calamity. Our main body of hobbyists and dealers, reformers and prima-donnas are hardly focused on saving coral reefs as partners with fisherfolk. Nor will they buy netcaught fish as a policy!
The arrogance to presume to save coral reefs without the fisherman and in lieu of their involvement boggles the mind.
Its not racism...as cohorts in Asia have suggested. Its out of touch' cultural ignorance. Grasping for straws provided by TR fish and the fig leaf offered by the latest reform NGO hardly addresses the issue. Not unless there is benefit to playing the proverbial flute while Rome burns.
There are thousands of fisherman that will learn either to catch fish more gently on the reefs or these same fisherman will proceed to catching, bombing and poisoning predators ie. snappers, groupers, tunas etc. They will kill manta rays and turtles and they will poach, smuggle and pay off willing fishery officials.
It is precisely this industry that offered a way out of destructive practice for so many fisherman! We are foreigners but also buyers...so, in this fishery at least, we have a vote.
We are seen as an alternative to less sustainable methods. To abandon the pro-fisherman ethic in favor of imagined significant contributions from the aquaculture industry is irresponsible! Why? Because reef destruction in nearing the end-game in area after area and the cause was never greater. It is now more then ever that we must train fisherman to do the right thing for their own reasons. . . which will satisfy our need to be positive and pro-active and also our need to have the fish handled better.
Our refusal to engage as social developers in our own trade [ so far]doesn't mean it can't be done.
We, of the trade have never attempted reform. What has passed for reform was the work of others who knew how to put money together and promugate it in our name. They didn't know fish, handling, decompression, netting material or how to train villagers but they did print good words that we taught them and run a nice office.
Perhaps our trade will never unite, not even to save itself. But the effort to do just that is a worthy one and the one with the best chance to save any reefs out there.
Steve
Oooops,
Sacrilege again!
Is the taken for granted, unexamined idea to 'save the coral reefs for the benefit of the fisherman that live near them'...or to save them for Westerners who watch the discovery channel?
Perhaps its higher up in the esoteric ladder and they should be 'saved' PETA style...just because they are 'natural'.
If Westerners can feel good about themselves for putting the fisherman out of work...I don't get it. That won't save anything as the fisherman will eat one way or another and all the rangers and "look but don't touch folks" will never stop them. In fact, the purists notion of reserving nature for richer folks recreation, entertainment and 'need to feel good about themselves' will and has create a backlash and the pace of destruction may well accelerate.
Tank raised fish come to us largely from two big businesses now, advanced from serious cash and grant money. Far from being a harbringer of things to come, they arguably replace the need for wildcaught clownfish and dottybacks...and a scant list of gobies and misc fishes.
Of course if you dare keep a wild anemone with your tank-raised clowns, YOU WILL DENY GENERATIONS OF WILD CLOWNFISH TO COME...ERASING THE ALLEGED ECOLOGICAL BENEFIT of buying the TR clowns in the first place!
TR is fine...if it floats your boat, why not? But please don't pretend that our aim as an industry is to do without nature and just leave it for hotels and kayakers.
The avoidance of netcaught responsibility has already blackened the eye of this trade and proven how few really care about the oceans. Futhermore the failures of NGOs to even function in the area of fishermans training and conversion to peaceful methods has perpetuated the on-going calamity. Our main body of hobbyists and dealers, reformers and prima-donnas are hardly focused on saving coral reefs as partners with fisherfolk. Nor will they buy netcaught fish as a policy!
The arrogance to presume to save coral reefs without the fisherman and in lieu of their involvement boggles the mind.
Its not racism...as cohorts in Asia have suggested. Its out of touch' cultural ignorance. Grasping for straws provided by TR fish and the fig leaf offered by the latest reform NGO hardly addresses the issue. Not unless there is benefit to playing the proverbial flute while Rome burns.
There are thousands of fisherman that will learn either to catch fish more gently on the reefs or these same fisherman will proceed to catching, bombing and poisoning predators ie. snappers, groupers, tunas etc. They will kill manta rays and turtles and they will poach, smuggle and pay off willing fishery officials.
It is precisely this industry that offered a way out of destructive practice for so many fisherman! We are foreigners but also buyers...so, in this fishery at least, we have a vote.
We are seen as an alternative to less sustainable methods. To abandon the pro-fisherman ethic in favor of imagined significant contributions from the aquaculture industry is irresponsible! Why? Because reef destruction in nearing the end-game in area after area and the cause was never greater. It is now more then ever that we must train fisherman to do the right thing for their own reasons. . . which will satisfy our need to be positive and pro-active and also our need to have the fish handled better.
Our refusal to engage as social developers in our own trade [ so far]doesn't mean it can't be done.
We, of the trade have never attempted reform. What has passed for reform was the work of others who knew how to put money together and promugate it in our name. They didn't know fish, handling, decompression, netting material or how to train villagers but they did print good words that we taught them and run a nice office.
Perhaps our trade will never unite, not even to save itself. But the effort to do just that is a worthy one and the one with the best chance to save any reefs out there.
Steve
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
