Woods Report
- Thread starter PeterIMA
- Start date
No, but I have over seen far more landings then you. And of those importers I have not first hand witnessed but asked ......none claim more then fifteen % DOA. Can you explain why an importer would tell me 7 percent and you 40%? Why in the world would any wholesaler admit such a thing even if it were true? Kinda like the "how often do you beat yor wife" Question. My local wholesaler is one of the biggest and Their on the East coast mind you ! When they unbox fish daily it runs about 10% DOA. And half the fish are damsels in spoon sized bags of water! I challange you come to Atlanta and the both of use will surprize visit this wholesaler and count the DOA.....we can make a day of it. If the estimated DOA is 20% or above ...................I will keep off this board for for three months. .............But get this....... if its 40% like you keep preaching to the industry.......I will never post again on this board! Im that confident ! Are you?PeterIMA":26f6hry2 said:
Kalk, First I only claimed that the average mortality at the importer level was 30% not 40%. The Lallo study provided mortality figures at the "retail" level.
Next, what about the DAA at the importer level? Any claims that I have made pertain to the total mortality (DOA+DAA).
So, now you admit you are not importing directly to your store (previously you informed me otherwise). So, you don't have any direct way of knowing the importers' DOA+DAA. The only information you might have is based on dealings with your local importer/wholesaler? Correct?
Peter
Next, what about the DAA at the importer level? Any claims that I have made pertain to the total mortality (DOA+DAA).
So, now you admit you are not importing directly to your store (previously you informed me otherwise). So, you don't have any direct way of knowing the importers' DOA+DAA. The only information you might have is based on dealings with your local importer/wholesaler? Correct?
Peter
No , I dont buy much from my local. I shop there for a fresh water fish to resell retail and cherry pick the few marine cherries I see when buying fresh water. I was using My local Wholesaler as an example, that even a big place like that {not the best in the USA ...but one of the biggest} Even being on the east coast they dont average anywhere near 30% . because they do so many fish and so many of those fish are damsels........their DOA may approach ten percent DOA And another ten percent DAA. Im not sure of their DAA because Im not there enough to count the dead fish daily ........But the DOA is not half of the thirty 30% percentage you claim is the National average. Nobody stays in Business long with 30% of the product dead. Fish wholesalers dont rely on drygoods for their profit. Seven percent DOA and seven percent DAA is more closely the real situation and more importantly the only range that makes a profit . In order to back up the 30% notion .You must also prove that its possible to make a profit in the face of a constant 30% DOA average. We already showed you that Franks 68% would make it impossible at the retail level. Now its time to put the 30% wholesale DOA to rest as well............
oh please
kalk, you evidently have NEVER transshipped, or have seen shipments ever arrive at a wholesalers
i've had damsels come in from wholesalers non-transshipped w/30%+ doa/daa
the typical damsel shipments usually avg at least 5-10% daa w/in a few days of arrival- especially fish like green chromis anf y/t, or fiji, dams
next you'll be claiming that you lose no fish w/in the first week of recieving a shipment
kalk, you evidently have NEVER transshipped, or have seen shipments ever arrive at a wholesalers
i've had damsels come in from wholesalers non-transshipped w/30%+ doa/daa
the typical damsel shipments usually avg at least 5-10% daa w/in a few days of arrival- especially fish like green chromis anf y/t, or fiji, dams
next you'll be claiming that you lose no fish w/in the first week of recieving a shipment
I thought you knew what DAA Stood for ? I am stating that The Deaths After Arrival =DAA is about the same as the DOA. 7% +7% for all fish and Yes the average for Damsel like fish is most likely twice that .....14 percent DOA and another 14% DAA............But thats my point . If we exclude Damsel like fish from the DOA DAA average........then we are left with a very small percentage of the fish dying with reguards the ballance of fish. Why do you suppose the most hardy of all fish Damsels .......has the highest DOA rate ? Its solely based on handling of the fish and volume of water in transport. Do you think damsels would come in dead if they each were bagged in a Bicolor angel size bag? Instead of twenty in a bicolor Angel bag! I you truely beleive the 30% nonsense....then what would you say the total DOA and DAA would be if 30% of the fish came in DOA like Peter suggests? If the fish are that stressed and tirty percent die before making it out of the bags ....then another 30% are gonna die DAA. Thats 60% loss of fish even before the fish are reshipped to retailers. Explain how anyone can stay in business or want to if that were a reality? You cant.vitz":7d76vb96 said:oh please
kalk, you evidently have NEVER transshipped, or have seen shipments ever arrive at a wholesalers
i've had damsels come in from wholesalers non-transshipped w/30%+ doa/daa
the typical damsel shipments usually avg at least 5-10% daa w/in a few days of arrival- especially fish like green chromis anf y/t, or fiji, dams
next you'll be claiming that you lose no fish w/in the first week of recieving a shipment
kalk-every single box of fish that comes out of the phillipines has on avg at least 15-20% doa/daa
the problem is the retailer pays for them anyway, whether they arrive alive or dead
i won't go into how many corpses i've helped pay for yrs ago when i was still stupid enough to trans-ship
markup on corals can easily cover an exporters and importer's fish losses-same applies to retail
all businesses survive by using higher profit items to cover the losing ones
the same applies to dealers of livestock only
your contention that only drygoods can be used to make up for losses of certain livestock deaths is ludicrous, laughable, and just plain idiocy
the problem is the retailer pays for them anyway, whether they arrive alive or dead
i won't go into how many corpses i've helped pay for yrs ago when i was still stupid enough to trans-ship
markup on corals can easily cover an exporters and importer's fish losses-same applies to retail
all businesses survive by using higher profit items to cover the losing ones
the same applies to dealers of livestock only
your contention that only drygoods can be used to make up for losses of certain livestock deaths is ludicrous, laughable, and just plain idiocy
All,
I am not sure that we all define the terms DOA and DAA in the same way. I consider that if fish arrive dead in the bags or if they die in the importers' tanks during the first day (when they arrived) that is what I call DAA. The fish that die during the following 4 days in the import facility is what I call the DAA.
Peter
I am not sure that we all define the terms DOA and DAA in the same way. I consider that if fish arrive dead in the bags or if they die in the importers' tanks during the first day (when they arrived) that is what I call DAA. The fish that die during the following 4 days in the import facility is what I call the DAA.
Peter
what about the fish that die after arriving at a retail establishment that croak w/in 4 days ?
i would think that those are also considered to be daa
especially considering that it's highly likely the mortality is due to what the fish have undergone from the moment of capture+transport
if i get an order from a major wholesaler, from a shipment they just received/will receive, and within 4 days some die, i certainly consider them to be daa, and the 'fault' of someone else other than me :wink:
i would think that those are also considered to be daa
especially considering that it's highly likely the mortality is due to what the fish have undergone from the moment of capture+transport
if i get an order from a major wholesaler, from a shipment they just received/will receive, and within 4 days some die, i certainly consider them to be daa, and the 'fault' of someone else other than me :wink:
So ,let me get this straight......... You both think that thirty percent die during transport or soon after.........another 30% DAA four days following arrival .......then 20% more fish die in the box when shipped to the retailers ..............next another thirty percent die when in the custody of the LFS? Then you should let the Online retailers replace the Brick and mortar retailers. Not only do the online retailers guarantee the fish to live past the point that B&M distribution system of which you claim kills 90% of the fish stocks ....... Online retailers are held accountable for any dead fish in the process by the customers and replace fish that arrive DOA or DAA or DAAAAYS LATER. Tell me how in your scenario that a drop ship system like F&S can offer a ten day Gauanatee? According to your figures They will lose 20 to thirty percent of the fish shipped in the box to the customer {same as to an LFS} 30 to forty percent within the next four days {DAA PETER Style}and then more fish the next six days of the ten day gauranteed period. Then we must factor in fish that the customer kills .....new tanks ....Killer tank mates .....jumpers ......bad acclimates ....ICK....and any of a number of other reasons fish die when added to a tank...........What is left ? Five percent of the fish F$S sells dont need replacement? You really think thats whats going on? :roll:
Okey........ I feel better then .its still too high but only half as much ........ But what we have then is a damsel problem ! Not an across the board industry problem . Yes , Damsels nation wide might average 30% after five days and half the total fishes imported are damsel type fish .........Its almost a seperate trade ....the damsels trade. Kind of like feeder fish.............. :wink:
PeterIMA":1fra2oo9 said:
i don't know where the line was exactly drawn as to where the daa cutoff timeline is. i.e.-how long into the journey is a mortality no longer considered to be officially a 'daa'
imo, the mortalities incurred by the retailer during the first 3-4 days of recieving livestock from a wholesaler are considered part of the 'daa category'
this of course assumes a properly run and healthy holding facility at the retailers, natch
my point is that from the perspective of including the 4 day time frame after arrival to a decent lfs-where the conditions are not a disease or major stress factor (all things considered), it's not at all implausible for the overall mortality throughout the chain of custody, for whatever combination of reasons, or reason, to be quite high, far higher than what some individuals would have others believe, based on my own personal observations both transhipping, and being present at wholesalers overseas when their shipments came in (israel)
if any hobbyist wants a real eye-opener, try getting a peek at what a wholesaler actually gets, how it's packed, and how many doa's they get, for whatever reason(s)
cyanide is one of the most environmentally destructive contributing factors to the rate, as well as being a probably major shipping stress contributor
that in an of itself is enough reason for it to have no place in the hobby
the amounts used are really irrelevant,- anything over zero is unnacceptable
hth
p.s.- i had interpreted you as not saying that the 3-4 day lfs period was counted in the daa figures, so i sounded off :wink:
naesco":29x12qry said:
please drop the badgering naesco
i'm not prepared,well rather, willing, to defend it to YOU
this badgering on your part is the beginning of the example from my previous post
i don't recall where anyone ever told me i have to explain my reasons for posting to you, either
and you've already put words in my mouth
if you decide to keep hounding you'll just get your fingers tired
nothing personal
Vitz, Thanks for the clarification. I am interested in hearing what others in the trade consider to be their definitions of DOA and of DAA.
My definition is that DAA occurs during days 2-5. Mortality during the first day (at the export, import, or retail level) is counted with the DOA. One of the speakers at MO 04 (a German lady) demonstrated that the DAA rose and peaked (at over 30%) on the 5th day at an Indonesian export facility. So, when we discuss mortality we need information on both DOA and DAA. It would be helpful if we could agree on the definition of these terms.
Peter
My definition is that DAA occurs during days 2-5. Mortality during the first day (at the export, import, or retail level) is counted with the DOA. One of the speakers at MO 04 (a German lady) demonstrated that the DAA rose and peaked (at over 30%) on the 5th day at an Indonesian export facility. So, when we discuss mortality we need information on both DOA and DAA. It would be helpful if we could agree on the definition of these terms.
Peter
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