If I thought you had the ability to comprehend what I said without taking it out of context, I would answer it. Prove that you are capable of that, and I'll answer that and any other myriad of questions you might have. But since you know everything already, I don't know why you would need me to answer anything. Anyway, according to you I'm wrong quite often, so I'd probably give you an incorrect answer anyway.
No one wants the big fish sent to them . They are too risky and too hard to sell...or ge tto eat ......If the market wanted them then Hawaii would be shipping containers full of them . About the only way collectors sell them is by slipping them in an order {like marys example} Vitz if you really have a market for big show fish , then three are a number of Hawaiian shippers that can send you hundreds. .......or do you also think Hawaii is out of big fish as well? As for fish coming up to divers ........that happens almost every where in the world other then The Philippines and Florida The dry Tortugas being the exception ............The Philippines has had intense fishing for thirty years now it has fundamentally changed the habits of the fish ...............think the fish in The Galapagos Islands behave the same way to divers?
Vitz Wrote:
Vitz, I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. Perhaps it's a regional thing, but I find myself in agreement with Jeff. I've got a nice fat Imperator that I've had for a couple of months, and for sale at a reasonable price. I have a huge Fiji foxface that I've had longer. I had an Undulated Trigger (sm who grew to medium) for 18 months before I put him in my FOWLR display, so now he's a pet. These fish are great drawing cards - they bring people in to see, but people just don't buy them. I've got a customer with a 1200 g that's nearly ready to go, and recently another customer with a 1000 g came in looking for a few showwy specimens, so I put them on the "wish list" but by and large, the majority of customers have 90-gallon tanks or smaller, most of my customers have reefs versus fish-only so many of the angels, triggers, groupers etc., just aren't reef-friendly. I do more with blennies and gobies and Centropyge angels and small tangs than any of the big showwy fish. Many who have the space for a larger fish want a juvie to watch it grow. Some even feel that leaving the breeding sized adults in the ocean is best, because they can keep on producing little ones for our enjoyment... I do think that on some level awareness is there, at least in the Atlanta market.
It may also have to do with the people selling these fish - I don't push large fish in small tanks -- but I know of some dealers who do. In may I was given a 10" Unicorn tang that came out of a 60 hex. The customer was moving and finally decided that fish was too big for his tank... he'd had it for 2 years, it was small when he got it, but of course it grew quickly. It's about 12" long now... happy and living large in our 1000 g. I personally wouldn't think of selling a small unicorn tang to somebody with a 60 hex.... but another store did... along with 4 other tangs.
I can't speak to the export issue - but from my own experiences in retail, the trend is toward fewer and smaller fish.
Jenn
Vitz, I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. Perhaps it's a regional thing, but I find myself in agreement with Jeff. I've got a nice fat Imperator that I've had for a couple of months, and for sale at a reasonable price. I have a huge Fiji foxface that I've had longer. I had an Undulated Trigger (sm who grew to medium) for 18 months before I put him in my FOWLR display, so now he's a pet. These fish are great drawing cards - they bring people in to see, but people just don't buy them. I've got a customer with a 1200 g that's nearly ready to go, and recently another customer with a 1000 g came in looking for a few showwy specimens, so I put them on the "wish list" but by and large, the majority of customers have 90-gallon tanks or smaller, most of my customers have reefs versus fish-only so many of the angels, triggers, groupers etc., just aren't reef-friendly. I do more with blennies and gobies and Centropyge angels and small tangs than any of the big showwy fish. Many who have the space for a larger fish want a juvie to watch it grow. Some even feel that leaving the breeding sized adults in the ocean is best, because they can keep on producing little ones for our enjoyment... I do think that on some level awareness is there, at least in the Atlanta market.
It may also have to do with the people selling these fish - I don't push large fish in small tanks -- but I know of some dealers who do. In may I was given a 10" Unicorn tang that came out of a 60 hex. The customer was moving and finally decided that fish was too big for his tank... he'd had it for 2 years, it was small when he got it, but of course it grew quickly. It's about 12" long now... happy and living large in our 1000 g. I personally wouldn't think of selling a small unicorn tang to somebody with a 60 hex.... but another store did... along with 4 other tangs.
I can't speak to the export issue - but from my own experiences in retail, the trend is toward fewer and smaller fish.
Jenn
One other thought... while the big fish tend not to sell as well, for the most part it's not too hard to get the big adults to eat. Angels become quite tame quite quickly and that big Imperator loves to grab nori out of my hand... ditto with the Fiji foxface -- they both might end up in my show display 
It's much easier to support the biggies than some of the tiny litte P. hepatus, or mimics or convict tangs... it's rare to lose a large fish but the tiny ones can be touch and go sometimes.
Still, the small fish are what sell in my shop - small juveniles of larger species, and adult sized small species like gobies and blennies, chromis, etc.
Jenn
It's much easier to support the biggies than some of the tiny litte P. hepatus, or mimics or convict tangs... it's rare to lose a large fish but the tiny ones can be touch and go sometimes.Still, the small fish are what sell in my shop - small juveniles of larger species, and adult sized small species like gobies and blennies, chromis, etc.
Jenn
i agree that it most probably is a regional thing
all of my retail experience here is in the northeast
it would be interesting to hear some retailers from the northeast chime in w/their experience
kalk-
dunno why i keep on having to remind ya, :wink: but i'm presently NOT in retail, nor do i intend on being in retail in the future
all of my retail experience here is in the northeast
it would be interesting to hear some retailers from the northeast chime in w/their experience
kalk-
dunno why i keep on having to remind ya, :wink: but i'm presently NOT in retail, nor do i intend on being in retail in the future
Vitz, in our store it's about 85% reef, and maybe higher. I'm a big fan of the big & aggressive fish, but they simply don't sell. In the past 4 months, we've had a clown trigger, pinktail trigger, panther grouper, large (12" volitan) lionfish, spotted hind, yellowmargin trigger, and tesselata eel...and still have them. I'm eventually phasing them out completely save for special order. I'd even rather stock a few angels and butterflies...they don't sell, either, but an imperator or semilarvatus attracts a lot of attention. The only fish that people really notice and stare at now are the lion and the clown trigger...the others aren't worth stocking at all.
Small, peaceful fish sell like hotcakes...inverts, clams (HUGE spike in sales the last few months), and corals, corals, corals!
IMHE...
Peace,
Chip
Small, peaceful fish sell like hotcakes...inverts, clams (HUGE spike in sales the last few months), and corals, corals, corals!
IMHE...
Peace,
Chip
I thought that you were still in it. Actually that might explain the disagreement here. A lot has changed in the last three four years. Today Atlanta is the leader in reef tank market. Just a few short years ago Fish only tanks were the larger market. The main reason I began my store is I knew the reef tank market was coming to stay and I have family in the invert/coral business . Even when i revisit other cities like Jacksonville or Chattanoga /Knoxville three years ago there were very few reef tank geared LFS. The Aquarium in Knox or Atlantis in Jax...... Now they are the main stores . Like I said before The hobby is being reeformed more by reef tank owners then MAC or AMDA could have ever dreamed ....... And the great thing about the new industry is that most of us {myself included} could care less if our tanks contain fish ! No fish would mean total exculpation for the hobby once and for all .........And thats a very nice thing!vitz":jzs108r0 said:
kalk- your short term memory must be starting to go, or you don't pay much attention to what the people you talk to here say
i stopped working retail 13 months ago, not 3-4 yrs, and i have my doubts about atlanta leading the the u.s. in the retail market, w/out factual data from you to prove it
and i still contend that the demand for fo tanks, larger fish, at least up until 13 months ago, was quite 'healthy' in the northeast
i can think of another store in philly that carries(d) plenty of larger fish-mebbe 3/4 hr drive from where i worked in joisey :wink:
jeebus, now you're typing 'reeform' ?
i stopped working retail 13 months ago, not 3-4 yrs, and i have my doubts about atlanta leading the the u.s. in the retail market, w/out factual data from you to prove it
and i still contend that the demand for fo tanks, larger fish, at least up until 13 months ago, was quite 'healthy' in the northeast
i can think of another store in philly that carries(d) plenty of larger fish-mebbe 3/4 hr drive from where i worked in joisey :wink:
jeebus, now you're typing 'reeform' ?
The point is that while there are a few retailers selling big fish ........the Importers are not bringing them in from overseas in numbe4rs like they were a few years ago . The supply of big fish is huge from certain countries like Veitnam , Palau and Hawaii . But dispite big fish being available few wholesalers want to mess with them . not when there is this new market for tiny fish . As for Atlanta and the reef tank market, there are five stores in the area that sell 60% reef with about or over one million in sales per year and another fifteen to twenty that sell reef ..........We also have by far the largest number of hobbyists on the web forums .........in the world with continued growth each year. Even Seagrest is comming to town soon to service the market.
mebbe i just woke up, rather than am still up ?
once again, your predilection for assumptive blanket reasoning is showing
since when is jenn hard data for reefkeeping trade retail statistics compared to other states?
you made the claims about your area leading the u.s. in 'reef related setups' sales volume, you back up the data
once again, your predilection for assumptive blanket reasoning is showing
since when is jenn hard data for reefkeeping trade retail statistics compared to other states?
you made the claims about your area leading the u.s. in 'reef related setups' sales volume, you back up the data
Kalkbreath":fs2zrrzv said:
I have no statistics on other stores, except the one I worked at before I opened my own shop. I can offer opinions, but Jeff please don't presume that I can back up your "facts"... I have no statistical data (do you?!), but some of my experiences might support some of your notions, although you make some pretty tall claims that I'm not sure can be substantiated.
The only STRICTLY ANECDOTAL experience I can share is that most of the stores I visited in my research for my own business plan, had fairly comprehensive reef sections/equipment. This is the only city I have lived in in the US, so I can't compare with experiences elsewhere. I have not visited an out of town LFS in about 3 years and that experience is limited to the Florida panhandle - but I saw nothing there that impressed me - but that could have been luck or lack of it. I was there on vacation not on a LFS junket.
There does seem to be a large proportion of hobbyists from this area on the popular message boards, but there's also a fairly substantial reef club here, and that lends exposure to the boards. According to research I did, less then 30% of American hobbyists join any sort of aquarium society or club (I believe that was PIJAC survey, '98 ), and guaging from my number of customers versus those involved in a club I'd say that's an accurate number. Given that I was a big cheerleader for the reef club, I might also go out on a limb and suggest that I have/had a higher proportion of customers who are involved in the club, since I pitched it to them from my shop for the better part of 2 years.
The hobby is most definitely popular in Atlanta. Most of my customers are reef tank owners, but is that because I specialize in reef creatures? Perhaps. Perhaps if I specialized in large showwy fish, that would be the majority of my customer base? I don't know. I built my store around my likes... my passions, as well as what might eventually turn me a profit. Now I'm getting into freshwater not because it's my passion but because it will help pay the bills and I now have the room to broaden my customer base.
The hobby and trade are alive and well here - there are a lot of good stores, I only know my own sales figures and for a little mom and pop I get a decent slice of the pie, to the point where I've been able to expand in the first 2 years. The area where I am located is in a place that is growing exponentially - when I opened I was in the middle of nowhere but the area is being developed at an alarming rate, and I am hopeful that will bring a wave of new customers.
But to presume that Atlanta is a "leader" or that we're that much different - I can't make that assessment, I do not have any data to support that.
I do stand behind my earlier assertion about small fish sales versus large ones... but that is the market I created/support.
Jenn
There is not even any real data as to how many aqauriums there are in America. Hard data in this business ? Ya right. My claims might be off a tad ......but what if Atlanta is number two not number one. Okey Atlanta is the co- leader! With Miami or New jersy. Does that sound better ? There are five non big box stores within three miles of my store ......that sell marine. Do you know of any other city in the US that has a market to support such density? Los Angeles doesnt even come close..... Miami has huge tank sales numbers but most are fish only set ups. What city do you think leads the US ? And why?vitz":1gw2l0v2 said:
we got like 80+ stores not including the 3 big box store chains we have, in and around the Bay area. Plus several large non ship out wholesalers and like 10 medium sized ones. Our market out here is growing as well Kalk. Several reef oriented clubs to boot. Do we lead the nation, probably not.
naesco":22c2y06d said:
These were fish I ordered. I just won't be ordering any more in the future. I do like to keep some of the flashier, more interesting ones in the stores (at least one lion, at least one clown trigger) because it sparks interest. However, I simply don't have the tank space yet to keep them around when they don't sell. I don't get 'subs' or 'filler' fish. My orders are pretty accurately filled.
Peace,
Chip
I didn't say it did and I have really no clue about the LA scene as far a retail and hobbyists goes. I can tell you that people from SF bay area sometimes jump on Southwest and check out LA for cool corals and such or drive to Sacramento to check out a frag swap. Coral/reef oriented things are what sparked the growth here, not large fish. the stores that are doing well, that are highly talked about, are 90% reef.
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