Aquarium Reform

[naesco]

So do you order large fish or do they just substitute them for the smaller ones you do order or are they filler fish?

These were fish I ordered. I just won't be ordering any more in the future. I do like to keep some of the flashier, more interesting ones in the stores (at least one lion, at least one clown trigger) because it sparks interest. However, I simply don't have the tank space yet to keep them around when they don't sell. I don't get 'subs' or 'filler' fish. My orders are pretty accurately filled.

Peace,

Chip

Great! Mary is not as lucky as you!

 

[Anonymous]

do you understand that 'fillers' are basically a wholesaler, and not a retailer issue, naesco ?

a retailer who doesn't order direct doesn't really get filler (i'm pretty sure the store chip works at is in that category)

the filler issue isn't as bad as it used to be, but it more or less only pops up for wholesalers and transshippers

why you compare a retailer op to draw a conclusion about a wholesaler's luck is beyond me, you may as well compare blueberries to bananas :roll:

 

[naesco]

do you understand that 'fillers' are basically a wholesaler, and not a retailer issue, naesco ?

You may be correct but LFS have told me that they received Moorish Idol even though they were not ordered.

 

[Anonymous]

from a wholesaler, or from transhipping?

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW, box fillers are usually smaller items neasco, but we won't hold you not knowing anything about the trade against you even though you feel otherwise.

 

[naesco]

FWIW, box fillers are usually smaller items neasco, but we won't hold you not knowing anything about the trade against you even though you feel otherwise.

But Moorish Idol are not small. They were substituted for bannerfish.Has the same thing happened to others?

 

[MaryHM]

Other possible causes for a retailer to tell Wayne that a Moorish Idol was subbed for a bannerfish:

1. The person pulling the order mistook it for a bannerfish. It would be a dumb mistake, but especially from larger wholesalers where you have 20 people pulling fish all day, it's a possible mistake.

2. The retailer knows Wayne is, shall we say obsessive, about these things. He really did order the Moorish, but told Wayne is was a mistaken substitution just so he didn't have to hear a USL lecture.

 

[naesco]

Other possible causes for a retailer to tell Wayne that a Moorish Idol was subbed for a bannerfish:

1. The person pulling the order mistook it for a bannerfish. It would be a dumb mistake, but especially from larger wholesalers where you have 20 people pulling fish all day, it's a possible mistake.

2. The retailer knows Wayne is, shall we say obsessive, about these things. He really did order the Moorish, but told Wayne is was a mistaken substitution just so he didn't have to hear a USL lecture.

Are you telling me some one is still importing Moorish Idol stateside? Who?

Persistant, demanding, unrelenting, committed but not obsessive.

Now how did you get stuck with those large fish you didn't order.
Did the exporter substitute a mature breeding fish for the small one you ordered or did the fish come as filler?

 

[JennM]

I'll take what's behind Door #2, Mary. I've heard plenty of retailers use that line -- and I know fillers happen from time to time -- one big LA wholesaler used to send me Goniopora sp., Dendronepthya and Cataphyllia sp. at least 1-3 each box even though I would fax them a "DO NOT SEND" list with every order...

I'm pretty straightforward with new suppliers. I tell them not to sub except for size or closely related species, without my knowledge. They do it once, with one of my "verboten" list, I make a phone call to them about it. They do it twice, I call somebody else. The few I deal with now, know what my "comfort zone" is, and I haven't received an unwanted specimen for about 18 months now... and I have received some very pleasant surprises - nice fish or corals that I didn't specifically request but my supplier knew that it would fit my ethics/philosophy.

This luxury is reserved for retailers buying from Stateside wholesalers - it is not necessarily applicable to importers. Once a fish is caught, it does not get returned to the ocean -- it's going to go through the chain of custody as far as it can, and the weakest link is the exporter to importer one.

Wayne - I saw a Moorish Idol in a store 5 miles from mine a few weeks ago... it was thin and I am sure it's dead now, but yes, they are still being brought in. Dumbasses are still buying them. Haven't you seen "Finding Nemo?" You need one to complete your 30-gallon NEMO TANK! :roll:

Wayne -- you really REALLY need to get a clue.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I have ordered exactly two moorish idols in the past two years. Both ate like pigs and did very well for the three weeks they were in our shop. We sold them to people who knew exactly what they were getting and knew how to take care of them.

Wayne, exaplain to me the difference between a moorish idol and a piece of of acropora?

 

[kylen]

but LFS have told me that they received Moorish Idol even though they were not ordered.

What stores Wayne? Send a PM or email if you like I can can probably verify their story. I would be willing to guess that a store with Moorish Idols received them via tranship. With that in mind, I would take a second stab at it and guess that they did in fact order it and it wasn't filler as stated.

No names of stores need to be mentioned, Wayne...PM or email will suffice.

 

[naesco]

I have ordered exactly two moorish idols in the past two years. Both ate like pigs and did very well for the three weeks they were in our shop. We sold them to people who knew exactly what they were getting and knew how to take care of them.

Wayne, exaplain to me the difference between a moorish idol and a piece of of acropora?

Rover this is the typical response of some hobbyists and industry types. Everyone knows of one MI that suvives (for now.)

I think you will find that most reputable LFS would not consider ordering them (except on special order) and would object to them being shipped as filler.
IMO they should be available to researchers and expert hobbyists for research on special order. In light of the fact they are USL they should not be available.
IMO because industry has refused to endorse the USL for even the most USL species the government will mandate a total ban on them.

Re acros vs. MI It is irrelavent what I think. Try making that argument with the government type

 

[Anonymous]

another evaded question :wink:

 

[naesco]

another evaded question :wink:

Do you bring in MI on spec? Why /why not

Are you sent MI as fill?

 

[Anonymous]

sorry naesco, what i ever ordered or not, or recieved, or not, is none of yer beeswax

since you never answer anyone's questions, i won't be answering any of yours 'till you take care of the 50 or so i've been waitin for an answer to since '02 :lol:

 

[naesco]

Why is industry so afraid in acknowledging the common practice that:

1.Importers/wholesalers commonly substitute fish/coral that are on the USL for the fish/coral ordered.

2. Importers/wholesalers commonly substitute mature/breeding fish for small fish that are ordered.

3. The main reason for 1 and 2 above is the fishers pick up the fish that are left from the cyanide blast (whether they are mature or on the USL) and deliver them to the exporter. The exporter gets rid of them to the importer who in turn passes these on to the LFS/online stores who in turn sell them to unsuspecting hobbyists.

How can you remain silent about this? How do you defend this?

 

[Anonymous]

there's an official usl ?

why do you think that being silent to you = being silent ? you have absolutely nothing to do with the machinations of industry, the gov't, or any eco group

why do you equate a refusal to answer you w/an admission of any type of culpability?

enough with the pestering witch-hunt attitude, it will get you nowhere

you may want to begin learning the basic rules of common courtesy that usually apply to the art of having a conversation-so far you're only alienating yourself from just about everyone you demand answers from-be polite, and you'll get alot further, maybe

:wink:


how do you even know how common or not a practice it is? you have absolutely NO, i repeat NO, first hand experience in this industry, rather, you're really only a gadfly who has no interest in fact finding, but only in pointing fingers to blame others, and barking out orders in some weird fantasy world, where you think you command some type of respect

however, respect isn't given naesco, it's earned :wink:


how dare you accuse me of ANYTHING, when you know nothing :wink:

 

[Rikko]

Everything I know I read on the internet..

Every time a customer comes in and tells me they read something on the internet, it's usually uninformed and gets them nigh slapped in the face. Great example just yesterday was someone who had read that putting shells in their FW tank will keep their nitrates down. I'm sure they're already busily killing their fish because I know nothing and the internet knows everything.

I'm at the point where if I haven't seen anything with my own eyes and haven't seen several peer reviewed scientific papers on some issue, I'm mature enough to decline an opinion on the matter because I'll probably just embarrass myself.

 

[JennM]

As the old proverb goes...

"It is better to remain silent and be thought the fool, than to speak and remove any doubt."

So Rikko backs up his opinions with facts, Wayne's silence lets us believe... well... when he speaks all doubts are lifted....

Hey Wayne, how do you define an "expert hobbyist?" What are the criteria that might make it "OK" to keep a Mandarin or an Acropora? How about a seahorse?

I'll never EVER be an expert. NEVER. I've had a few people refer to me that way and I'm quick to correct them - I'm experienced and an enthusiast but I hate the term "expert". However I've successfully kept all three of those species.

I know people who consider themselves "experts" that most definitely aren't.

So who decides? You? Do we need to write a test or buy a licence? Just how does that work?

And I won't even begin to try to explain the supply end of the industry... you think that exporters can just conjure up cookie cutter specimens in the sizes and quantities of every single order?

Nevermind -- it's more wasted bandwidth.

I wouldn't mind some answers to my questions though...

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

1.Importers/wholesalers commonly substitute fish/coral that are on the USL for the fish/coral ordered.

2. Importers/wholesalers commonly substitute mature/breeding fish for small fish that are ordered.

3. The main reason for 1 and 2 above is the fishers pick up the fish that are left from the cyanide blast (whether they are mature or on the USL) and deliver them to the exporter. The exporter gets rid of them to the importer who in turn passes these on to the LFS/online stores who in turn sell them to unsuspecting hobbyists.

And your authoritative opinion is based on what?? Talking to one retailer who "said" he had an MI subbed? Geez Wayne. Honestly. You never cease to boggle me with your incorrect diatribes.

Let's start with #1 on your list. What retailer on here is complaining that importers/wholesalers are commonly substituting "USL" fish? How many retailers have you talked to that gives you the idea that the word "commonly" is appropriate? Same thing for #2. What retailer on here is complaining that importers/wholesalers are commonly substituting large fish?

#3 is the dumbest of all. I rarely get any large fish from the Philippines. The biggest is probably a medium imperator angel (maybe 5"). And I've never been subbed a species of fish that I wouldn't normally order. I've been subbed quantities of other species (ie: order 20 yellow anthias and 20 sqamipinnis and get 30 yellows and 10 sqamis.) I've had extra fish of what I order put in the box (order 20 yellow anthias, get 30). Neither of which are a big deal.

Prove your claims, Wayne. Back them up with something other than your emotion. Try facts every once in a while and people may begin to take you more seriously. I really want to hear your rational for these most recent claims.