You missed out the preamble
Why is industry so afraid in acknowledging the common practice that
Both you and Vitz refused to answer the question relative to the substitution of fish.
In your case it was your prior post where you indicated you received large fish which you found difficult to sell when you ordered small ones.
Mary do you think MI should be available to the market today other than on a special order basis? Why?
Why is industry so afraid in acknowledging the common practice that
Both you and Vitz refused to answer the question relative to the substitution of fish.
In your case it was your prior post where you indicated you received large fish which you found difficult to sell when you ordered small ones.
Mary do you think MI should be available to the market today other than on a special order basis? Why?
Wayne, you missed my point. I'm saying that I don't think it is that common and I'm asking you why you think it is. I didn't refuse to answer your question. I basically answered in your last post. But I'm not going to say something that you will (like you always do) twist to mean what you want it to mean, if that's what you're looking for. Yes, I have 2 XL Niger Triggers right now. No, they are not from the Philippines or Indonesia, so that blows your "cyanide link" out of the water. I ordered L Niger Triggers, expecting 5" triggers. They came in at 10"+. Not exactly what I ordered, but they're healthy and eat like pigs. They will be here for a while, as fish that large just don't have a ready market. However, they're healthy and we'll just keep feeding them until they sell. Receiving fish this large is RARE. Extremely rare. If it was common practice as you suggest, I wouldn't have room to order any small fish because my tanks would be crammed full of big fish. Moorish Idols? I don't care if people bring them in or not. As far as I know, they aren't unsustainable. Would I bring them in on something other than a special order? No. But I'm not going to tell anyone that they can't. There. Happy? I answered your questions. Now, return the favor. What are you basing your #1-#3 post on? What proof?
Wayne...I gues it's hard to acknowledge something that is rather uncommon. I don't sub items for a customer unless they authorize for subs for like items in the same price category. I have asked suppliers not to substitute filler items and they are all more than happy to oblige. As Mary stated, quite often I will receive different numbers for items that were ordered. This I don't mind.
Which are you Wayne...the pot...or the kettle???
Which are you Wayne...the pot...or the kettle???
I based it on the fact that each time I asked the question of you and Vitz, both of you have refused to answer.
You have now answered the question which I asked several days ago.
You have stated that the substitution practice is no longer common.
Therefor I withdraw the assumptions I made in this post:
"Why is industry so afraid in acknowledging the common practice"
You have now answered the question which I asked several days ago.
You have stated that the substitution practice is no longer common.
Therefor I withdraw the assumptions I made in this post:
"Why is industry so afraid in acknowledging the common practice"
Wayne, just because I decide I don't want to answer one of your questions does not mean you should make a conclusion about the entire industry. That is extremely stupid. "Mary won't answer, so I'm going to base my entire opinion about the industry on that." Dumb, dumb, dumb.
MaryHM":wydwlf9i said:
Mary it was you who exposed industry's dirty little secrets on this board and in this forum and you did so with glee.
you have since swithed your positition and now defend indsutry's position on almost ever reform issue. ie the USL. It is a reasonable assumption to make after you have been asked several times and refuse to answer
what 'secrets' wayne ?
if anyone published 'secrets' it was robinson and fama, circa '82, (?) in the cyanide editorials/articles they published, and which i remember reading, including the death threat accounts that forced them to decide to stop
my how out of date you truly are-you don't even know the history of the issue you choose to deal with
if anyone published 'secrets' it was robinson and fama, circa '82, (?) in the cyanide editorials/articles they published, and which i remember reading, including the death threat accounts that forced them to decide to stop
my how out of date you truly are-you don't even know the history of the issue you choose to deal with
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Thanks for the vine Vitz...
although FAMA did stop...I sure didn't.
FAMA lost some ad revenues and got plenty of guff from manufacturers.
Mainly however...asst. editor Pat Crews pulled the plug as she was purely interested in the business of FAMA sales.
Editor/owner Don Dewey was the one interested in converting the train to a sustainable one.
Once she even called him 'crusader rabbit' derisively to me.
Today those same manufacturers would claim to be pro-environment like everyone else.
Steve
although FAMA did stop...I sure didn't.
FAMA lost some ad revenues and got plenty of guff from manufacturers.
Mainly however...asst. editor Pat Crews pulled the plug as she was purely interested in the business of FAMA sales.
Editor/owner Don Dewey was the one interested in converting the train to a sustainable one.
Once she even called him 'crusader rabbit' derisively to me.
Today those same manufacturers would claim to be pro-environment like everyone else.
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
BECAUSE...
BACK THEN THE FACT THAT THE INDUSTRY WAS BASED ON ILLEGAL ACTIVITY...CYANIDE FISHING .
ITS ILLEGAL AND THEREFORE ILLEGAL TO IMPORT AS IT IN VIOLATION OF FORIEGN LAW.
Even Seaworld people got upset because they thought that an expose would give the wing-nuts a chance to clamor for a shutdown.
Its all still true but the LACK of an effective CDT that would hold up in a court of law when confiscating shipments of tainted fish gave it all a stay of execution.
Thats why the industry people have been so anti-environmental. They resent exposes from outsiders as incompetent...but insiders? THEY RESENT THAT EVEN MORE.
Our expose and call for reform is an industry one.
The expose was all from commercial people and the proposed solution of village net training is also an industry response.
Its ironic that environ-mentalists have squandered the issue, the money they were paid from funders and the past 20 years...as the reefs continued to degrade.
To this day...the trainings from the old days run by commercial collectors were the effective ones and the ones that resulted in the trainees getting jobs in Vanuatu, Tonga, Red Sea, Belize, Palau etc.
Today, importers know the value of these old divers. Thats why they take them out of the Phillippines. If I knew then what I knew today...I could've started a consultancy/manpower agency and farmed out trained divers like a business.
Our boys have been used everywhere but the Philippines to collect and train properly.
Ironic, no?
Manufacturers could help sponsor an industry training of say 1,000 divers and in one year do more for the cause then all other effort to this date.
Plus, they would get credit for the break-thru and the responsibility and 'SELF-governance' shown.
So...Central Pet...Aquarium Systems, Marine Environment, Kent, Marineworld, etc... what about it?
Steve
BACK THEN THE FACT THAT THE INDUSTRY WAS BASED ON ILLEGAL ACTIVITY...CYANIDE FISHING .
ITS ILLEGAL AND THEREFORE ILLEGAL TO IMPORT AS IT IN VIOLATION OF FORIEGN LAW.
Even Seaworld people got upset because they thought that an expose would give the wing-nuts a chance to clamor for a shutdown.
Its all still true but the LACK of an effective CDT that would hold up in a court of law when confiscating shipments of tainted fish gave it all a stay of execution.
Thats why the industry people have been so anti-environmental. They resent exposes from outsiders as incompetent...but insiders? THEY RESENT THAT EVEN MORE.
Our expose and call for reform is an industry one.
The expose was all from commercial people and the proposed solution of village net training is also an industry response.
Its ironic that environ-mentalists have squandered the issue, the money they were paid from funders and the past 20 years...as the reefs continued to degrade.
To this day...the trainings from the old days run by commercial collectors were the effective ones and the ones that resulted in the trainees getting jobs in Vanuatu, Tonga, Red Sea, Belize, Palau etc.
Today, importers know the value of these old divers. Thats why they take them out of the Phillippines. If I knew then what I knew today...I could've started a consultancy/manpower agency and farmed out trained divers like a business.
Our boys have been used everywhere but the Philippines to collect and train properly.
Ironic, no?
Manufacturers could help sponsor an industry training of say 1,000 divers and in one year do more for the cause then all other effort to this date.
Plus, they would get credit for the break-thru and the responsibility and 'SELF-governance' shown.
So...Central Pet...Aquarium Systems, Marine Environment, Kent, Marineworld, etc... what about it?
Steve
As usual, you are wrong about everything. I didn't expose the secrets. I just talked about them. Everybody knew already. I just let people know that cyanide was still an issue- that it hadn't ended in the early 80's.
Please tell me what industry position's I defend. My position on the USL hasn't changed in a couple of years. Go back and read the posts, Wayne. I have the same view now as I did then.
Quit telling me what I think and what I do. You have no idea, and I'm really getting tired of it.
Wayne,
I am the guy that Mary got the large niger trigger from that she made the comment that she did not order it that large. Yes, I do ship out a lot of large fish, I also send out a ton of small ones. My divers do not use any cyanide, I can guarantee absolutly for sure. Your idea of how large fish come into the trade holds absolutly no water. Most all large fish come from net caught sources. I suspect that in the Philippines they are eaten rather than exported, and the few large angels that are caught generally go to China never to the U.S. My divers catch fish using a snorkel, they do not have compressed air available to them. It is very difficult to catch small nigers without compressed air because they are found in numbers only at deeper depths than my divers go while surface diving. The large nigers and pink tail triggers are in shallow water and are fairly easy to catch. What this boils down to is that I have many more large, xlg, nigers than medium or smalls. In fact I rarely have a small. Also our sizes are generous, a small trigger to me is a couple of inches long. A small trigger from the Philippines would be classed as plankton to my workers. Mary ordered a large trigger from us, when you order a large from us you get what you ordered, a large fish. If she had ordered a small niger we would not have sent her a 10 inch fish, she would have gotten nothing. However she ordered large and she got large. If that fish had been caught in the Philippines I am sure that they would have eaten it. That is why to them a 5 inch fish is a large, because if it is bigger than that then it is not an export size fish but is food.
Just to ruffle your feathers I will let you know that tonight I received 10 Moorish idols to my L.A. facility. They did not come from Solomons as we do not collect them. I rarely get Moorish idols in but when I do they always sell by the next day. There is a demand for them. I will never sub a Moorish Idol in any order and I really do not believe that any other wholesale outlet in L.A. would do that purposely knowing about it. There are plenty of people that will buy them on purpose without taking the risk of substituting it unordered. I have kept Moorish Idols in tanks for several months. I have customers that are going on years with them. I know that many die but many also live. If someone wants to try keeping one alive I think that they should be able to try it is not impossible. Also these were sent as box fillers but no I am not upset about it as I know that they will be sold tomorrow. Moorish Idols are very common on the reef and there is not sustainability issues with them.
Dave
I am the guy that Mary got the large niger trigger from that she made the comment that she did not order it that large. Yes, I do ship out a lot of large fish, I also send out a ton of small ones. My divers do not use any cyanide, I can guarantee absolutly for sure. Your idea of how large fish come into the trade holds absolutly no water. Most all large fish come from net caught sources. I suspect that in the Philippines they are eaten rather than exported, and the few large angels that are caught generally go to China never to the U.S. My divers catch fish using a snorkel, they do not have compressed air available to them. It is very difficult to catch small nigers without compressed air because they are found in numbers only at deeper depths than my divers go while surface diving. The large nigers and pink tail triggers are in shallow water and are fairly easy to catch. What this boils down to is that I have many more large, xlg, nigers than medium or smalls. In fact I rarely have a small. Also our sizes are generous, a small trigger to me is a couple of inches long. A small trigger from the Philippines would be classed as plankton to my workers. Mary ordered a large trigger from us, when you order a large from us you get what you ordered, a large fish. If she had ordered a small niger we would not have sent her a 10 inch fish, she would have gotten nothing. However she ordered large and she got large. If that fish had been caught in the Philippines I am sure that they would have eaten it. That is why to them a 5 inch fish is a large, because if it is bigger than that then it is not an export size fish but is food.
Just to ruffle your feathers I will let you know that tonight I received 10 Moorish idols to my L.A. facility. They did not come from Solomons as we do not collect them. I rarely get Moorish idols in but when I do they always sell by the next day. There is a demand for them. I will never sub a Moorish Idol in any order and I really do not believe that any other wholesale outlet in L.A. would do that purposely knowing about it. There are plenty of people that will buy them on purpose without taking the risk of substituting it unordered. I have kept Moorish Idols in tanks for several months. I have customers that are going on years with them. I know that many die but many also live. If someone wants to try keeping one alive I think that they should be able to try it is not impossible. Also these were sent as box fillers but no I am not upset about it as I know that they will be sold tomorrow. Moorish Idols are very common on the reef and there is not sustainability issues with them.
Dave
I bed to differ, but not by much
Some do make it to the states, but not really thru wholesalers, mainly transhippers, and very few. Dave is right, you wouldn't see a trigger coming outa PI that big. Large to PI is 5", and thats a S/M tweener for Dave Wayne, 3 importers that have their own stations have weighed in on this, and a few that don't have a station, but do import on a weekly basis have weighed in as well. Will you not listen to them. Your simply wrong here buddy.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Daves so right,
There is less sustainability issue with the so-called USL species then anyothers. This is because since their demand is so low and that no one really wants them...that they are plentiful on the reefs compared to others.
In Northern Bali for example...the raccons, aurigas, longnose,vagabundus, rafflessi, ulietensis, have been so heaviliy fished that the reef is crawling with those damned c. trifasciatus, trifascialis, plebius, baronessa, octofasciatus and melanotus.
They invade like sparrows for lack of the normal competition and do unfortunately...rather well. This is because no one in their right mind wants them!
Anyone who knows fish that is. This 'red herring' USL thing suggests a conservation measure where none is needed. Coral feeders are doing better on the reefs then anythging else as NO ONE WANTS THEM...especially w/ the rise of the reef tank.
Its is the token....read 'TOKEN' posturing of eco-reef trade beginners trying to define themselves as 'greener' then the next person.
If someone wants to experiment with a new food or care regimen...why not? Let them have some on special order.
If the local PETCO or equally oblivious slaghterhouse dealer brings em in as asst. butterflies, whose he selling to? Equally oblivious people who refuse to read anything and don't get out much.
They don't constitute much demand at all...far less in proportion to the "cry for an end to coral feeders would suggest.
Selecting simple, token little causes that are easy to rail against is a cheap image improvement device employed to show that one is a 'conscientious aquarist.'
All this does is give new reef reform groups fake cannon fodder to use against the trade that is obviously hell-bent on "wiping out" the small amount of UNDESIREABLE species traded by merchants that none of you should be patronizing anyway.
Steve
PS. Undesireable species it should be called....
Oooh...oh... I just got in some cool chaetodon trifasialis? Anyone ever hear of something like that?? Of course not. Cause it doesn't happen!
There is less sustainability issue with the so-called USL species then anyothers. This is because since their demand is so low and that no one really wants them...that they are plentiful on the reefs compared to others.
In Northern Bali for example...the raccons, aurigas, longnose,vagabundus, rafflessi, ulietensis, have been so heaviliy fished that the reef is crawling with those damned c. trifasciatus, trifascialis, plebius, baronessa, octofasciatus and melanotus.
They invade like sparrows for lack of the normal competition and do unfortunately...rather well. This is because no one in their right mind wants them!
Anyone who knows fish that is. This 'red herring' USL thing suggests a conservation measure where none is needed. Coral feeders are doing better on the reefs then anythging else as NO ONE WANTS THEM...especially w/ the rise of the reef tank.
Its is the token....read 'TOKEN' posturing of eco-reef trade beginners trying to define themselves as 'greener' then the next person.
If someone wants to experiment with a new food or care regimen...why not? Let them have some on special order.
If the local PETCO or equally oblivious slaghterhouse dealer brings em in as asst. butterflies, whose he selling to? Equally oblivious people who refuse to read anything and don't get out much.
They don't constitute much demand at all...far less in proportion to the "cry for an end to coral feeders would suggest.
Selecting simple, token little causes that are easy to rail against is a cheap image improvement device employed to show that one is a 'conscientious aquarist.'
All this does is give new reef reform groups fake cannon fodder to use against the trade that is obviously hell-bent on "wiping out" the small amount of UNDESIREABLE species traded by merchants that none of you should be patronizing anyway.
Steve
PS. Undesireable species it should be called....
Oooh...oh... I just got in some cool chaetodon trifasialis? Anyone ever hear of something like that?? Of course not. Cause it doesn't happen!
I've never really seen over half the butts Steve is talking about, so they can't be all that common. After seeing thousands of boxes of fish, I have seen a handful (one hand) of obligate feeders. Guess what, it was a new company that sent them out. Did they do it again, nope. Will they do it again, nope. Does wayne think it happens, yup. Is wayne right, nope!
MaryHM":88xoud6i said:
You want proof! How about this newbie industry type?
Have you unwittingly exposed another of industry's dirty little secrets?
:::::::::My biggest complaint is that I get about 50-60 percent of what I order and of that at least 50% has been subbed with another item (usually more expensive). Is this the norm in the business? I have a couple of other suppliers that I could try, but I chose this one due to the fact that the previous owner had fewer losses with this company that any other. If the losses are higher with another supplier, I need to just quit now while I'm still out of the poor house. I have not disclosed the name of the supplier in question for many reasons, not the least of which is I still may need to do business with them, but be assured it's a very large, well known company. I would appreciate any advice you can give. Thanks.
-Aaron
Poor, poor Wayne. Make a fist. Now stick out your index finger. Hooray! You've finally made a point!! :roll:
Your items #1-#2 were as follows:
1. Substitution of USL species.
2. Subsitution of mature/breeding fish.
Neither of those issues were raised by Aaron. Maybe he is getting subbed USL and mature fish. But let's find out WHAT he is getting subbed prior to jumping to conclusions, shall we?
Your items #1-#2 were as follows:
1. Substitution of USL species.
2. Subsitution of mature/breeding fish.
Neither of those issues were raised by Aaron. Maybe he is getting subbed USL and mature fish. But let's find out WHAT he is getting subbed prior to jumping to conclusions, shall we?
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