House Bill HR 4928

[Anonymous]

CITIES has the inverts coverred, fish are the unregulated ones right now right? I don't think they're saying CITIES is bogus and the US needs to have its own regulation. However, it's true CITIES is bogus.

When you train divers, you also have the responsability to get them the proper tools. With out the proper tools, how can one be trained in the first place? What good is a training if they can';t aquire the toolds? I too feel Industry should be the one suppling the tools, and doing the training as well (non commercial divers have no place doing it, nor does Lino Alverez). If you train divers, don't supply them with the tools, are you helping or hurting? I say hurting as it'll, cause backsliding like no one business. As say saying goes 1st time same on you, 2nd time, shame on me. They won't let it get to "shame on them". Empty promises, no tools, really what are they to do, get scammed yet again?

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, you have no idea as to how American govm't works. The senator from Hawaii won't get his bill passed until the senator from Kentucky gets funding for the road that will take my house and the senator from who knows where will get funding for some other pet project. And along the way, the bill will get reworked and reworded and there will be funding for REFORM that doesn't do squat to help any reefs anywhere and only the NGO's will get richer, not the reefs and certainly not the trade. I'll get a road on top of my house and the American people won't get any fish. Plain and simple.

The truth be told, if the curio trade was the only thing banned, the reefs would recover faster. But I don't see that listed in the bill.

 

[dizzy]

Why would anyone want to pay these guys thousands of dollars to get certified? That bogus dealer/cost benefit study will never come true. There will never be enough fish to go around. We all know it Lee. All expect for you perhaps.

Why the attempt to belittle me? Is there a need to personalize the frustration at this potential legal challenge? I'm aware of MAC's all-to-obvious shortcomings and the arguements that Steve has been advancing about the gross lack of certified fish on the U.S. market.

Lee if you go back to my post that you lifted the top quote from, you will be able to recognize the fact that you drew first blood. You took a shot at me in the quote from you that I used at the top of that post. That was in fact my reason for including that quote with the post. I thought that was obvious. What comes around goes around. I don't want to see these discussions turn personal. John Brandt started that conspiracy stuff. In truth I feel 100% vindicated by the release of the MAMTI Project documents. I think it is high time the spin doctors address the possible consequences of this legislation and forget the personal smeers.
Mitch

PS Although Lee did not use my name directly, the tea leaves comment can be attributed to me, and thus is the same as a personal shot at me. At least that is the way I see it. I believe all that is necessary to prove in a libel or slander case, is that the reader would realize who he was talking about. Does anyone have a different view?

 

[JennM]

We will press for an immediate passage of sufficient of the bill to see an immediate ban on the import of fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant together with a total ban on live rock.
This will stop destruction and stop the criminals. In the meantime the details you seek on the other aspects of the bill will such time as the other just parts of the bill can be implemented.

BZZZZZ Wrong, Wayne!!!!

Suppose just for sake of argument that the bill passes as it reads - it will effectively stop importation of live specimens, period. Not only from cyanide countries, but from all countries.

How does that stop the destruction? The US (and Canada... where no such bill is being introduced...) is not the only consumer of marine ornamentals... so the supply will go elsewhere: Europe for example.

From our borders we can't dicated how or what other people do.

IMO passage of this bill as I interpret it (and I admit I did not read the whole thing but I think I've got the gist of it....), it will be a huge step BACKWARD for the reefs, because any and all positive influence we had in any of those countries, will have no more reason to exist -- why foster change if we can't import the specimens?

And, if the demand for ornamentals goes down, the food fish industry will likely absorb the fisherfolk who had to leave the ornamentals trade -- that will put more pressure on food fish stocks, and there will be less to go around amongst more people. Not a good economic outlook for the villagers and fisher folk, IMO.

The best way to protect the reefs is to give the local people who glean their livings from it, how to use it and manage it so it sustains them for generations to come.

Jenn

 

[Jaime Baquero]

From the beginning the MO industry hasn't shown any interest in facing the problems related to collection, handling, holding, overcollection of fish and more at collection level.

Back in the early 90's OVI considered that the trade of marine ornamentals had the potential to became a sustainable activity, we thought that it was in its (MO industry) own interest to participate in the different programs put in place by the NGO's. It didn't happened, the industry didn't have the willingness neither the commitment to do so. Today, things are almost the same, the problems are still there, the coral reefs in the Pi and Indo are underpressure because the demand for MO is still there.

The Marine Aquarium Council is the ONLY group moving forward. MAC has a program in place and has the economic support to tackle the different problems the industry has created.

Like it or no, NGO's are the only ones that have worked on the different issues related to the exploitation of coral reefs for the marine aquarium industry. One thing for sure is that the marine aquarium industry as a whole has failed, its future depends on MAC's accomplishments.

 

[Anonymous]

There is good discussion here guys, don't kill it with the personal vindictiveness.

 

[MaryHM]

its future depends on MAC's accomplishments.

If that were true, then God help us. Based on MAC's "accomplishments" (please name one that has created any meaningful change in the past 5 years), we would have no future.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd like Jamie to actually show how much of a fish supply MAC has to supply the hobby if this bill actually gets passed. Because, according to the bill, if MAC doesn't supply enough fish, the hobby could die.

Right? Did I say anything wrong?

Peace,

Chip

 

[naesco]

Wayne, you have no idea as to how American govm't works. The senator from Hawaii won't get his bill passed until the senator from Kentucky gets funding for the road that will take my house and the senator from who knows where will get funding for some other pet project. And along the way, the bill will get reworked and reworded and there will be funding for REFORM that doesn't do squat to help any reefs anywhere and only the NGO's will get richer, not the reefs and certainly not the trade. I'll get a road on top of my house and the American people won't get any fish. Plain and simple.

The truth be told, if the curio trade was the only thing banned, the reefs would recover faster. But I don't see that listed in the bill.

As you are one of the few rational and responsible industry persons, I want to share something with you for your consideration.
What you post may be true but there is legislation tabled in Washington.
That bill is not the result of extensive lobbying, demonstrations in the street or political IOUs. It is not one of those I vote for your missile site you vote for my roads type of issue.

Every environmental lobby group has been handed a Christmas present in August. They have a bill tabled without spending one dime.

Your industry can expect every conservation group to take an immediate interest.
Those groups include the powerful international GREENPEACE organization and the much feared PETA organization

You cannot fight this bill. The only thing that can be done is adopt a series Reeform proposals that make the intent of the bill (to stop the destruction of the reefs) unecessary.
Sadly Sally, your fellow industry types are too big headed, pig headed or stupid to understand that the party is really over and that only reeform can save them if they act now.

 

[Anonymous]

I didn't realize you were an industry person, Wayne. Were you at the last Industry BBQ?

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
You have carbon dated yourself.
GREENPEACE sold out long ago and PETA only takes the non ecosystem anthropomorphic approach and has little following in congress.
There are groups looking to make hay out of this but you have missed them. As your main influence for environmental affairs, I will not teach you the current players.
Update your dogma on your own and get with the times.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
Is it not the case that you own kin works in the trade selling any kind of saltwater fish...including the er...full variety?
Steve
PR. Rover...perhaps he assumes membership in this way.
And if so, must surely belong to several Canadian industry groups.

 

[naesco]

Jennn wrote
Suppose just for sake of argument that the bill passes as it reads - it will effectively stop importation of live specimens, period. Not only from cyanide countries, but from all countries.

How does that stop the destruction? The US (and Canada... where no such bill is being introduced...) is not the only consumer of marine ornamentals... so the supply will go elsewhere: Europe for example


JENN
You can expect that both Europe and Canada will adopt the US legislation.

I have already been in touch with a number of Canadians including expats and experts.
We will be meeting with the Environment Minister and discussing similar legislation.
We will also be putting forward requests for funding from CIDA and other Canadian organizations whose goals are to better the lot of the peoples of other countries and consevation groups as well

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
Bettering the lot of other peoples by putting the fisherman out of work and shutting them down?
Is there a dole check in the works for them?
Just compensation, buying out liscences, safety nets etc. are all wonderful things but they don't run that stuff in S.E.Asia.

PS. The upshot of the bill ...if passed would be to increase reef destruction by a return to more intensive food fishing...which is all the poor divers know.
"Increasing reefs destruction in Asia thru Western notions" should be the title of the bill.
Steve
Look boss, if you want to appease a guilty conscience for all the land development and tree logging up there...plant some trees and do some good local stuff for the community.

 

[clarionreef]

ANyone,
Anyone got a good Randle Mc Murphy pic that I could use as a new avatar?
He was always a hero of mine.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, you have no idea as to how American govm't works. The senator from Hawaii won't get his bill passed until the senator from Kentucky gets funding for the road that will take my house and the senator from who knows where will get funding for some other pet project. And along the way, the bill will get reworked and reworded and there will be funding for REFORM that doesn't do squat to help any reefs anywhere and only the NGO's will get richer, not the reefs and certainly not the trade. I'll get a road on top of my house and the American people won't get any fish. Plain and simple.

The truth be told, if the curio trade was the only thing banned, the reefs would recover faster. But I don't see that listed in the bill.

As one of the few rational and responsible industry persons, I want to share something with you for your consideration.
What you post may be true but there is legislation tabled in Washington.
That bill is not the result of extensive lobbying, demonstrations in the street or political IOUs. It is not one of those I vote for your missile site you vote for my roads type of issue.

Every environmental lobby group has been handed a Christmas present in August. They have a bill tabled without spending one dime.

Your industry can expect every conservation group to take an immediate interest.
Those groups include the powerful international GREENPEACE organization and the much feared PETA organization

You cannot fight this bill. The only thing that can be done is adopt a series Reeform proposals that make the intent of the bill (to stop the destruction of the reefs) unecessary.
Sadly Sally, your fellow industry types are too big headed, pig headed or stupid to understand that the party is really over and that only reeform can save them if they act now.

what makes you a 'rational and responsible industry person' ?

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Kalk,

The use of clorox in Hawaii is to capture reef fish for human consumption. This is indeed a "case" where the collectors of marine ornamental fish for the hobby are not to blame. Unfortunately, there is no test for clorox that can be applied to make a case against this type of destructive fishing. Presumably, even with the new legislation the only way to stop clorox fishing will be to catch the fishers in the act. Hawaiian newspapers over the last year have reported some arrests for using "juice".

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Why would anyone want to pay these guys thousands of dollars to get certified? That bogus dealer/cost benefit study will never come true. There will never be enough fish to go around. We all know it Lee. All expect for you perhaps.

Why the attempt to belittle me? Is there a need to personalize the frustration at this potential legal challenge? I'm aware of MAC's all-to-obvious shortcomings and the arguements that Steve has been advancing about the gross lack of certified fish on the U.S. market.

Here is a question, why is everyone accusing MAC of compicity in the drafting of this legislation? Much of the scope of the legislation is directly related to invertibrates, which, as far as I know, MAC isn't attempting to certify. The only NGO that I can recall working on tracking/certifing invertibrates is CORL. Could this vast conspiracy goes even deeper?

why do you insist spreading misinformation about other orgs you repeatedly show you know nothing about?

where on earth do you get your info from ?

corl was/is working on a tracking system for their propagated corals, so that any purchaser would be able to prove that the colony's are not wild caught-it's simply a traceability system through records of when the initial seed colony was harvested from the reef, and how many generations subsequent to the original, the clone colony is at the time of sale

that is the extent of any 'tracking/certification' programs corl's doing

nothing even mildly related to certification

unless you consider a 'certificate' as being the same thing :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

ANyone,
Anyone got a good Randle Mc Murphy pic that I could use as a new avatar?
He was always a hero of mine.
Steve

http://www.suite101.com/files/articles/ ... wover2.jpg

Do a little cropping and you're golden.. :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Why Thank-you,
I'm a grateful diver for this.

At the end of the movie when all the other loonies made fun of Randle for his efforts...he said at last...."At least I tried".

Randle McMurphy, the patron saint of lost causes. Right up there with Braveheart and Joan of Arc. Long may he be remembered.

Steve