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JT,
You are totally wrong. How can you say that the Tongans are untrainable. How many Tongans have you trained? Have you ever been to Tonga? Have you worked with the divers? Actually go down with them and show them what to collect? What company did you work for in Tonga? They just need motivation and leadership, something that is lacking there. If you want to blame someone, blame the managers and the owners. As a company, everything starts from the top. I know, if I didn't really care about my shop, things would fall apart here as well. I admit even Christian is not a hard core hobbyist, he's more of a business man. That's why I'm there, to help him and educate his employees. I'm as hard core as you're going to get when it comes to corals, and certainly I'm not a pigeon! I run the largest aquarium service company in northern California, as well as the largest saltwater retail store. You're going to hear a lot of me in the future and I will go out of my way to turn Tonga around! You make me sick man! You don't even know the guys and you insult them. I built personal relationship with those guys, very important when you're running a business. I'm going back there in two weeks to bring new diving gear for the guys. Christian and I will also check out other islands and go make new connections - very important in any business. Christian is very influential in Tonga and can get things done. JT, if you were there, and saw what I saw, you would understand. But do me a favor, don't insult the people of Tonga. They are not animals that can't be trained. They are the nicest people around. There is a reason why noone goes hungry there. If you got beef with me or Christian, keep it that. Don't start generalizing a whole group of nice people!
Eddie
You are totally wrong. How can you say that the Tongans are untrainable. How many Tongans have you trained? Have you ever been to Tonga? Have you worked with the divers? Actually go down with them and show them what to collect? What company did you work for in Tonga? They just need motivation and leadership, something that is lacking there. If you want to blame someone, blame the managers and the owners. As a company, everything starts from the top. I know, if I didn't really care about my shop, things would fall apart here as well. I admit even Christian is not a hard core hobbyist, he's more of a business man. That's why I'm there, to help him and educate his employees. I'm as hard core as you're going to get when it comes to corals, and certainly I'm not a pigeon! I run the largest aquarium service company in northern California, as well as the largest saltwater retail store. You're going to hear a lot of me in the future and I will go out of my way to turn Tonga around! You make me sick man! You don't even know the guys and you insult them. I built personal relationship with those guys, very important when you're running a business. I'm going back there in two weeks to bring new diving gear for the guys. Christian and I will also check out other islands and go make new connections - very important in any business. Christian is very influential in Tonga and can get things done. JT, if you were there, and saw what I saw, you would understand. But do me a favor, don't insult the people of Tonga. They are not animals that can't be trained. They are the nicest people around. There is a reason why noone goes hungry there. If you got beef with me or Christian, keep it that. Don't start generalizing a whole group of nice people!
Eddie
Tropical-Paradise-Ed":3w2ffv4f said:JT,
You are totally wrong. How can you say that the Tongans are untrainable. How many Tongans have you trained? Have you ever been to Tonga? Have you worked with the divers? Actually go down with them and show them what to collect? What company did you work for in Tonga? They just need motivation and leadership, something that is lacking there. If you want to blame someone, blame the managers and the owners. As a company, everything starts from the top. I know, if I didn't really care about my shop, things would fall apart here as well. I admit even Christian is not a hard core hobbyist, he's more of a business man. That's why I'm there, to help him and educate his employees. I'm as hard core as you're going to get when it comes to corals, and certainly I'm not a pigeon! I run the largest aquarium service company in northern California, as well as the largest saltwater retail store. You're going to hear a lot of me in the future and I will go out of my way to turn Tonga around! You make me sick man! You don't even know the guys and you insult them. I built personal relationship with those guys, very important when you're running a business. I'm going back there in two weeks to bring new diving gear for the guys. Christian and I will also check out other islands and go make new connections - very important in any business. Christian is very influential in Tonga and can get things done. JT, if you were there, and saw what I saw, you would understand. But do me a favor, don't insult the people of Tonga. They are not animals that can't be trained. They are the nicest people around. There is a reason why noone goes hungry there. If you got beef with me or Christian, keep it that. Don't start generalizing a whole group of nice people!
Eddie
Ed,
I think JT was trying to give you a heads up about the people you are dealing with. (In his own JT kinda way) I have heard of others being burned/ things not working out before you with these particular folks in tonga.
Eddie,Tropical-Paradise-Ed":oaneexse said:Don't start generalizing a whole group of nice people!
Could maybe one of these nice people find me what I'm looking for? - Others here are graciously making an effort, but obviously they're not currently in the position where its readily available as you are it seems. - If its not in an electronic format, that's fine, I'd be happy to pay the postage to get the materials (assuming they're in english..)
Thanks!
Norm
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Untrainable....?
I remember once reading an editorial from TFH magazine to a group of divers I was working with in the Philippines.
The opinion piece by H. Axelrod said that he thought the Filipino collectors were untrainable also.
That was a nice little spur to our trainings as the divers took offense to the slur.
Today, Filipino collectors are sought after to establish collecting stations everywhere to compensate for the inability of the business class to train locals better.
If anyone sincere and half way capable in the water works with the locals, you find how wrong it is to take a white office bound businessmans racism for gospel.
Steve
I remember once reading an editorial from TFH magazine to a group of divers I was working with in the Philippines.
The opinion piece by H. Axelrod said that he thought the Filipino collectors were untrainable also.
That was a nice little spur to our trainings as the divers took offense to the slur.
Today, Filipino collectors are sought after to establish collecting stations everywhere to compensate for the inability of the business class to train locals better.
If anyone sincere and half way capable in the water works with the locals, you find how wrong it is to take a white office bound businessmans racism for gospel.
Steve
I have a little experience with Tonga. My opinion is that if you can make it work for you then great. I think that you should plan on putting a person down there full time if you really want it to work. I know Christian personally, I have some experience with how he works. There is a reason why the long term sucessful Tongan stations have full time expat people working with them.
You probably have a better chance of things working out for you with the higher margins that selling retail bring. With all of the problems that Christians shipments bring it is just impossible to make it work at the wholesale level. Many have tried.
You have seen the potential that Tonga has. That has been the allure for many before you. Tonga in general has been so problematic and so much effort and money has been spent without a lot of sucess that it stirs up emotion in some whos expectations were not met in Tonga. I spent a little time there and I turned tail and ran. It is not unusual for things to work out for a month or two and then things start to go down hill. That is where your full time expat manager will help out.
I think that everyone should calm down a little. If Tropical Paradise is able to make Christians Tonga station work then good for him. The industry can always use more quality product. Many others have not been able to make it work but rather than get nasty about it let's give Tropical Paradise a chance and see how he performs. It is their time and money, let them have a go at it. It will certainly not hurt to have Tonga get more training and direction. Give them a year J.T. by then the honeymoon will be over and it will either be profitable and they will still have a relationship or it will be over, probably with hard feelings. In a few months when the excitement is over and money starts to matter that is when we will see if Tropical Paradise can give the support and direction needed for Christian to succeed.
Dave
You probably have a better chance of things working out for you with the higher margins that selling retail bring. With all of the problems that Christians shipments bring it is just impossible to make it work at the wholesale level. Many have tried.
You have seen the potential that Tonga has. That has been the allure for many before you. Tonga in general has been so problematic and so much effort and money has been spent without a lot of sucess that it stirs up emotion in some whos expectations were not met in Tonga. I spent a little time there and I turned tail and ran. It is not unusual for things to work out for a month or two and then things start to go down hill. That is where your full time expat manager will help out.
I think that everyone should calm down a little. If Tropical Paradise is able to make Christians Tonga station work then good for him. The industry can always use more quality product. Many others have not been able to make it work but rather than get nasty about it let's give Tropical Paradise a chance and see how he performs. It is their time and money, let them have a go at it. It will certainly not hurt to have Tonga get more training and direction. Give them a year J.T. by then the honeymoon will be over and it will either be profitable and they will still have a relationship or it will be over, probably with hard feelings. In a few months when the excitement is over and money starts to matter that is when we will see if Tropical Paradise can give the support and direction needed for Christian to succeed.
Dave
Fish_Dave,
I'm a little confused about your explanation regarding Tonga and your experience with me. When you spent time with me in Tonga I was not even a part of the live fish trade. I was merely assisting someone who you were doing business with(Jeff's Exotic/Vanisi)and I was just the landlord of the warhouse.
If you made any bad business decisions with a Tonga operation(Jeff's Exotic/Vanisi) it certainly didn't involve me directly! Maybe you should call Jeff and work that situation out before you start taking shots at me and Tonga.
As a matter of fact, I have people(former walt smith divers) who will go on record and discuss the business practices of your partner (walt smith) at Pacific Aquafarms and what he did to the Tongan Reefs.
We can also reveal how Walt even got started in Tonga with his buddies that took extended vacations and left Walt with a collection station in Tonga. You told me that story personally! Would you like me to elaborate on your story?
Now,
you want to tell people to be careful of me and Tonga when your collection station in the Solomon Islands was nearly burned to the ground. I'm sure it was because you had great relationships with the folks from Guadalcanal and Malaita.
One of your former divers(Chris Beta) from the Solomon Islands was just here in Tonga helping train our Tongan Divers to collect fish. He now works for MAC(Marine Aquarium Council). All he could talk about was how much better our Tonga operation was than your operation in the Solomon Islands in every regard.
Our collection practices, our product selection, our packing, and most importantly, our teatment of the employees.
I must admit that when you first met me I could care less about an acropora or a yellow leather or the aquarium hobby as a whole for that matter. Now I'm hooked!
Much has changed since then.
A. Jeff's Exotic/Vanisi is no longer in the picture here in Tonga.
B. I have become a big fan of the Aquarium Hobby!
C. I have become much more hands on with regard to operations.
D. I have dedicated myself to being the best provider of Tonga Live Marine products!
Really the proof is in the pudding! Maybe the hobbyist would like to see first hand the products I'm sending to the U.S. from Tonga compared to your Pacific Aquafarms and Solomon Island product. That would be very interesting!
With regard to my boxes being crushed by the airlines:
Have you ever been disappointed by the airlines handling of your shipment?
Have you ever been off loaded in Fiji with your Solomon Island shipments?
The answer is Absolutely YES!!!! Because you told me out of your own mouth that the airlines were always screwing something up with your Solomon Island shipments.
OK.
What is your goal here? Are you upset that someone from the U.S. Hobbyist side is actually willing to be upfront and real with us in Tonga? Eddie has come to Tonga on his own to help the true hobbyist attain better products. He has not been asked to invest one dime here in Tonga. All we have asked is that if he come to Tonga that he show our divers what the hobbyist really want. \
Who do you cater to?
Eddie is the most passionate person I have ever met with regard to corals and the reef. No propaganda. No smokescreen. Just Love for the Reef.
JT:
What do you want from Tonga? Do you want to see me face to face or man to man and discuss your false statements about Tonga and collections etc... Who are you anyway? My name is Christian and I am a high chief for the King of Tonga. I will be in LA in a couple of weeks and would be more than happy to provide you and anyone else all the relevant info. regarding Tongan Law. Apparently everyone seems to think you work for mark at fish heads. Do I need to reveal Marks dirty laundry here in Tonga according to Lavi? Keep it real and keep it honest and everything will be just fine!
I'm a little confused about your explanation regarding Tonga and your experience with me. When you spent time with me in Tonga I was not even a part of the live fish trade. I was merely assisting someone who you were doing business with(Jeff's Exotic/Vanisi)and I was just the landlord of the warhouse.
If you made any bad business decisions with a Tonga operation(Jeff's Exotic/Vanisi) it certainly didn't involve me directly! Maybe you should call Jeff and work that situation out before you start taking shots at me and Tonga.
As a matter of fact, I have people(former walt smith divers) who will go on record and discuss the business practices of your partner (walt smith) at Pacific Aquafarms and what he did to the Tongan Reefs.
We can also reveal how Walt even got started in Tonga with his buddies that took extended vacations and left Walt with a collection station in Tonga. You told me that story personally! Would you like me to elaborate on your story?
Now,
you want to tell people to be careful of me and Tonga when your collection station in the Solomon Islands was nearly burned to the ground. I'm sure it was because you had great relationships with the folks from Guadalcanal and Malaita.
One of your former divers(Chris Beta) from the Solomon Islands was just here in Tonga helping train our Tongan Divers to collect fish. He now works for MAC(Marine Aquarium Council). All he could talk about was how much better our Tonga operation was than your operation in the Solomon Islands in every regard.
Our collection practices, our product selection, our packing, and most importantly, our teatment of the employees.
I must admit that when you first met me I could care less about an acropora or a yellow leather or the aquarium hobby as a whole for that matter. Now I'm hooked!
Much has changed since then.
A. Jeff's Exotic/Vanisi is no longer in the picture here in Tonga.
B. I have become a big fan of the Aquarium Hobby!
C. I have become much more hands on with regard to operations.
D. I have dedicated myself to being the best provider of Tonga Live Marine products!
Really the proof is in the pudding! Maybe the hobbyist would like to see first hand the products I'm sending to the U.S. from Tonga compared to your Pacific Aquafarms and Solomon Island product. That would be very interesting!
With regard to my boxes being crushed by the airlines:
Have you ever been disappointed by the airlines handling of your shipment?
Have you ever been off loaded in Fiji with your Solomon Island shipments?
The answer is Absolutely YES!!!! Because you told me out of your own mouth that the airlines were always screwing something up with your Solomon Island shipments.
OK.
What is your goal here? Are you upset that someone from the U.S. Hobbyist side is actually willing to be upfront and real with us in Tonga? Eddie has come to Tonga on his own to help the true hobbyist attain better products. He has not been asked to invest one dime here in Tonga. All we have asked is that if he come to Tonga that he show our divers what the hobbyist really want. \
Who do you cater to?
Eddie is the most passionate person I have ever met with regard to corals and the reef. No propaganda. No smokescreen. Just Love for the Reef.
JT:
What do you want from Tonga? Do you want to see me face to face or man to man and discuss your false statements about Tonga and collections etc... Who are you anyway? My name is Christian and I am a high chief for the King of Tonga. I will be in LA in a couple of weeks and would be more than happy to provide you and anyone else all the relevant info. regarding Tongan Law. Apparently everyone seems to think you work for mark at fish heads. Do I need to reveal Marks dirty laundry here in Tonga according to Lavi? Keep it real and keep it honest and everything will be just fine!
OK. This isn't the place for dirty laundry or personal grievances. Email each other to your hearts content. I'd be glad to have a discussion regarding proper collection in Tonga, but we need to leave all the names and companies out of it. Too hard to verify and too many accusations.
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