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clarionreef

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Rover asked the question;
What would it be like with no fish sales thru the mail...
and what if there were no LFSs.

Obviously, the fishmail outfits could disappear with no impact at all to the viability of the industry.
Just as obvious is the fact that without LFSs, the wholesalers dry up along with the critical mass of commerce that enables the entire trade to exist.
This is just the "Duh" of the week.

Its like asking, what happens to a dog with no fleas....nothing.
What happens to fleas with no dogs...they die.

As a collector and a wholesaler....I could never take seriously a trade that doesn't support the very people that buy the great bulk of livestock that allows a trade in the first place.

Dealers die off because of the plague of lowball, no sales tax, low overhead internet outfits but its not economic Darwinism...its more like foundation collapse....and bodes ill for the future.
Steve
 

naesco

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I wouldn't listen to LFS advice but I sure would listen to Rover and most who post on this forum. The quality of advice should be apparent to all.

Service is the key.
If you provide excellent service at a fair price customers come back. Those who dont, you dont want.
Wayne
 

clarionreef

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A great deal of the sales that keep a business alive are not that service related....the easy sales are required for staying alive as well as the more involved, service oriented ones.

Forcing the LFS to be at your beck and call and be a free consultant and provide constant tech , nutrition, disease and care support in order to make a sale...
and then denigrate him for not being an absolute expert on all things...
is unfair.
Especially when you use him to educate you on a bacterial infection and then rush home without buying anything to the computer to make the purchase and deny him any income.
Its so chicken #*@! to use the LFS for emergency water quality and disease control consultation for free and then skip out...
Here in the SF Bay area, we just saw one of our best stores go under.
Between "know nothing" chain stores and "know it all" cheap skates that just used her in emergencies...she was forced to try and make ends meet with a smaller and smaller customer pool....and sales that ment still more and more high level exhalted service".
The service they provided was very good...and yet not enough could be generated any longer to pay for all the great costs of 'being there for you.'

At the rate stores are folding up....will tomorrows hobbyist just sit in front of a computer half the day?
Come on.... Every fish geek NEEDS to get out of the house more and see other people. The store that closed had lots of girls working there....the only ones that some hobbyists ever got to talk to in real life!

Oh well, theres still the internet...
Steve
 

Piero

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not exactly the picture i had envisioned...lol but:
even without lfs's in every town, there would still be social networking, clubs, support networks, bar-b-q's, frag fests, and the like...i don't see what about an lfs makes those things possible. in fact, the internet has done more to facilitate them....i'd guess.
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clarionreef

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Piero,
The social groupings you mention are based mainly in the reef/frag/coral part of the trade...which is actually not the whole trade.
Sure, zoanthids fly well in the mail...but many things don't.
In fact, some of us disdain the coral trade yet love the aquarium trade...gasp...can I say that here?
When I think of the trade in general, its sustainability, its reform issues...I sure don't think of coral first.
Steve
PS
. Even Berlin coral cuture existed and survived under East German-[no LFS] fascism...of course there will always be something.
 

Piero

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Steve,|
I do see your point on the negative aspects of the coral trade. Some aspects of it leave a bad taste in my mouthe as well, but idunno if its any more dissapointing than any other fish and animal trade. They're all pretty awful from the point of the animals i think.

I do disagree on the limitations of the shipping and trading aspect of the hobby however. Everything got here in a box i think, and trading is certainly not limited to any general group of corals, although certain varieties are more the trend.
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Piero, I think you are vastly overestimating the number of people who are in the hobby and participate in internet discussion. One of the benefits that the internet and etail has is the ability to to spread the hobby into places without the cuctomer base or population to sustain a brick and mortar store. (Although, whether or not that is a good thing in an era of dwindling supply, has yet to be determined.) However, if not for exposure to the hobby through some other source, (likely a well run pet store at some point in their lives), these rural people woudn't know what they were missing.

The ugly truth is, (are you ready...), retailers in the fish biz don't really make that much money. Most of them do it because they were hobbyist and wanted to be able to make money doing something they love and are (wait for it....) *good* at. The irony of these stores being made out to be greedy, ignorant, backwards stores, while the guys who never even see the product they sell, much less house, feed, and care for are lifted up and praised as having the best interest of the hobby at heart never ceases to amaze me.

Sometimes you have to look past the marketing and see what you are really being sold.

Yes, the internet has changed the hobby. But it has changed the hobby for the retailers too. The same free information that is available to the hobbyist is at the fingertips of the store owner as well. Add that wealth of information (and book larnin') to the years of hands on experience dealing with far more fish and corals than the average hobbyist will ever see, and a good local fish store still comes out on top.
 
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JennM":1dllj8er said:
If business people, regardless of their pursuit, don't make a profit, they don't stay in business, period.

Right. Whether it's to save the reefs or buy a plasma TV...

:lol:

Peace,

Chip

P.S. Yes, Jenn, I'm just breakin' 'em on ya. :)
 

JennM

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marillion":3zjctnk9 said:
JennM":3zjctnk9 said:
If business people, regardless of their pursuit, don't make a profit, they don't stay in business, period.

Right. Whether it's to save the reefs or buy a plasma TV...

:lol:

Peace,

Chip

P.S. Yes, Jenn, I'm just breakin' 'em on ya. :)

Chip's comments stem from a personal discussion we had where I called him on the carpet over the ethics of some of his practices as a LFS worker.

I'm a LFS owner, and I make the decisions, and I do everything possible to make sound *ethical* as well as *business* decisions.

Yes, I'm in it to make a living, but 3 years in, I'm not making a living at it yet. Doesn't mean that's not the plan, nobody goes to work every day just for the hell of it, we all need to pay the bills.

I too think Piero overestimates the number of people who look beyond the LFS for help and advice. And like Glenn said, the information readily available to hobbyists, is available to LFS types too, so we can simply be another vehicle to deliver that information.

Glenn also pointed out another glaring irony.... e-commerce vs. retail... when you click your credit card number on Race & Marty's site, do you think one of them actually sees your fish, let alone feed it, observe it, bag it? Nope. Some plebe in a call center forwards the order to a warehouse staffer at one of the wholesaler and that's it. Do you think Race and Marty's call center is staffed by aquarists with years of hands-on experience? Maybe, but chances are the person on the phone specializes in telephone order taking, customer service, is computer literate with their ordering software, and maybe stuffs some envelopes.

And yet we who work on the front lines in the LFS are simply out to take your money and nothing more?

Get a reality check, please.

I had 15 years IN THE HOBBY before I started working in the trade, and eventually hung up my own shingle. How can you even compare that with some phone jockey?

If anything, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, it is the E-Tailers who are out to turn a fast buck at the expense of the hobbyist and the reefs. The ONLY reason they are able to bend you over without your realizing it, is because by and large, their prices are cheaper.

I've seen several etail websites that tout Mandarin Dragonettes as "easy to keep". I've had customers make the mistake of buying a fish or two online... like a cute little spotted sweetlips, touted as "easy care" (Scott Michael says juvies are difficult to feed....), and with no mention at all on their website that the fish grows to 28" (great for a 55-gallon tank, right?!).

I had a customer buy such a fish (sweetlips) and once he got it, and began to research it, he called me in a panic... "What should I do now?" While I was really tempted to just tell him to "send it back", I did offer some suggestions, but I'd bet the fish died before it ate. I also told him there is a reason why I don't carry certain species, and this was one of them.

Yes it's up to each hobbyist to research FIRST - but reality is, many do not. People are lazy, that's just human nature. For every Internet fish geek there are 100 more who don't bother surfing the net, and a good many of those would be hard pressed to crack a book. Their success (or failure) in the hobby is heavily reliant on the LFS.

A good LFS will retain hobbyists for many years. A bad one will suffer serious hobbyist attrition as people get fed up from repeated failures and give up altogether.

When I did my market research, I had found numbers on hobbyist attrition and it was something like 80% in the first year - oddly enough algae was a huge motivator to get people to throw in the towel.

3 years in, I just sent out 700+ mailers to my existing clients. I had 836 names in the computer. I didn't send to those who had moved (that I was aware of) or a few that I know have left the hobby. Some left because of finances, new baby, moved etc., but as I pored through my list (and I know my customers by name, and by tank), I think I only found a handful that just gave up on the hobby out of frustration or apathy. In that regard I've got a huge leg up on that so-called 80% attrition rate.

Think the etailer cares what happens once the order is delivered? In most cases, not. When a customer comes in, I often ask how their last livestock purchase is doing.

I'm not unique.

Yeah there are some crappy retailers out there... the crusty old folks who never moved out of the 1970s and never updated their skills... but given the law of the jungle I think they are fewer than some would care to admit. When people stop supporting them, they fade away.

By and large, the vast majority of LFS owners and workers are in it because they love it, and want to share their passion with others.

Lambast the retailer all you want - but we aren't going away anytime soon.

I'm still trying to figure out how an etailer can save your tank if your pump burns out suddenly? OH wait... they can sell you all new cheap fish to replace the ones that died when you were waiting for UPS to deliver your new replacement pump. :roll:

Jenn
 
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JennM":386rv5cc said:
Chip's comments stem from a personal discussion we had where I called him on the carpet over the ethics of some of his practices as a LFS worker.

I'm a LFS owner, and I make the decisions, and I do everything possible to make sound *ethical* as well as *business* decisions.

Yeah there are some crappy retailers out there... the crusty old folks who never moved out of the 1970s and never updated their skills...

To extrapolate on this, I took offense at Jenn calling me out, simply because of this : the owners of the business I run the marine department for are those 'crappy retailers that never moved out of the 70's.' Their name is on the business, and they are strictly about money. They would sell flame scallops and goniopora up the wazoo if it meant more sales.

Right now it's an 80/20 split as far as decisions. I have as much control over things as I can get. We carry no sweetlips, goniopora, flame scallops, etc. Mandarins are special order only for those with large established tanks. Typical cyanide target species are either avoided, or their ethically-caught-equivalent is offered at the higher price. We support ORA's aquaculture, selling their clams and only offering their clownfish and seahorses.

Every sale is accompanied by information and education, as well as every denial ("But I want to keep a shark!").

So, while I'm not at Jenn's level, I am confident I'm doing everything I can to be ethical within the constraints of my situation. All of this while educating my bosses and letting them know what the current situation of the industry/hobby/reefs are.

Peace,

Chip
 

JT

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If there were no LFS's, the industry could not support itself. There are only a couple full-line etailers that carry everything. 95% of the etailers are specialty/niche sites. Most specialize in SPS, some zoanthids and ricordia, some just inverts. Very few want to devote the space, time, and money to do fish properly. Most etailers haven't a clue when it comes to fish. Heck, look at the big boys. The largest of them drop ships their fish orders from their wholesaler in LA. Although, they are just now starting to build their own "coral farm" probably because someone refused to sell out to them and they are using this as a way to steal market share.

I have a couple etail customers, good solid ones that I know are trying to do the right thing, and their combined weekly sales totals don't match that of my #10 LFS customer. Attrition with etailers is unbelievable as well. Many see it as a way to make easy money and don't last more than a couple months. I have to be real selective when taking on a new etail-based customer, most are turn themselves away before I get a chance to when I tell them they have to buy some bread and butter to go along with their cherries. I couldn't afford to live just off sales commissions from etailers.

- JT
 

clarionreef

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JT wrote,
Of a big one... ie the biggest one drop shipping from a LA wholesaler!

How then can a retailer ever buy from the very one stabbing him in the back and shunting the cherries towards the public sales thru the mail in small boxes?

If retailers would avoid the dealers who open the door to looters from the inside, they'd have less to complain about.

I love whiney, cherry-pickin etailers...I had one for lunch today and denied three others this week alone.
Steve
 

Piero

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I think those are all very good, and valid points.

Chip I love yer avatar to death. Can't stop emailing to people...hehe.
And I grabbed the emporer one too. You don't happen to play SWG do you?
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jumbo

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cortez marine":1ubrbiqz said:
JT wrote,
Of a big one... ie the biggest one drop shipping from a LA wholesaler!

How then can a retailer ever buy from the very one stabbing him in the back and shunting the cherries towards the public sales thru the mail in small boxes?

Name names!
 

middletonmark

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JennM":1m11y70y said:
I'm still trying to figure out how an etailer can save your tank if your pump burns out suddenly? OH wait... they can sell you all new cheap fish to replace the ones that died when you were waiting for UPS to deliver your new replacement pump. :roll:

Jenn, remember that you are often the exception [as in exceptional retailer]. Many don't have your attitude, follow-through, or employee training.

I called one of the two fish-only LFS in town here last Saturday morning when it opened ... desperate for a 1" bulkhead. [Don't shop big-box pet stores here, they make me sick + wouldn't have it anyway]

One long-time employee of the store [2+ years IME] told me `they're locked in the van for the weekend, try back Monday'. Asked if there was any way to get into the van ... `I don't think so'. No attempts to try, no `let me see if I can call the guy' ... nothing.

Thankfully, I could drive across town to the place that IMO is `not as good' a LFS ... where they heard the panic + 1" bulkhead and dug one up for me.

I'm thankful to have one place in town that gives a darn ... but was just shocked with the apathy heard from the first LFS I called. I've brought them a hundreds of $$ in coral frag [at good prices] in the last year, easy ... and I got apathy in return.

Thankfully, we have two LFS in town ... and my perspective on them has been increased. I think it's experiences like that jade some folks [self-included] on the LFS as a source of help ... as they know me by name at both places, eagerly ask me for frags ... yet one was fine leaving me bulkheadless for a few days [despite having some in van, and I'd put money on them having some on empty/unused tanks.

But I will let that LFS owner know, politely, about the response I got.
 

Rikko

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I was under the assumption that wholesale lists were confidentail... Certainly half the ones I have here say that on it and I figured the rest were implicit..

Are this guy's suppliers going to be happy that their wholesale information is being broadcast?
 

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