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dizzy

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Has anyone else seen the latest Pet Product News? It seems MariCal Inc of Portland Maine and Proaquatix are working together to create marine fish that can live in freshwater. The jest of the story is that by supplementing the fish's food and water with naturals minerals (developed by MariCal) they can live in freshwater. These adapted fish may be on the market within 6 months to a year. The article further goes on to state that Proaquatix is currently raising 45 species of fish, some of which are food fish. Sounds pretty neat. I wish them luck.
Mitch
 

naesco

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JeremyR":3ew1v3au said:
I skimmed the article.. I'm not sure if I think it's neat or not....

Is it possible to post it? Unless there has been a change of ownership in the past couple of years, they are the same company, one being a division of the other.
Thanks
 

spawner

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Mitch,

I remember seeing an add for this type of thing a few years ago, but I think ORA refused to sell the company the fish (can't really remember). The concept of saltwater fish living in freshwater is not new. Many marine fish can live in freshwater if you have a high enough calcium concentration (total hardness). Most marine fish are iso- osmotic at about 15-18 ppt. The higher mineral content will prevent you from keeping some freshwater fish with them. I kind of rank this up with the idea of making hybrids or GM fish, not very high.
 

dizzy

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spawner":2hnufi80 said:
I kind of rank this up with the idea of making hybrids or GM fish, not very high.

I don't think it is near the same thing. I mean your not trying to genetically modify the fish or anything. It is kind of like taking someone from the country and adapting them to live in the big city rat race.
 

spawner

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Its just a bit werid that's all and most people who have freshwater tanks don't take the time to care for the fish as they do with marine systems. At least that is what i found when I was selling fish. But now you can sell millions of nemo's to 5 year olds to go with their Glow Fish, mickey mouse and dalmation mollys.
 

dizzy

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Oh I see, it's ok for someone in Kansas to pour Instant Ocean into freshwater and keep Nemo. But if researchers discover that many of the salts and trace elements in Instant Ocean are not necessary for Nemo's health and survival, and come up with a simple calcium additive, this should be considered a witches brew? It might be like man discovering that he didn't have to kill and eat meat to survive, although most of us still do. How are we going to define un-natural? Is a movement to ban reverse osmosis or distilled water in our future.

I remember seeing an add for this type of thing a few years ago, but I think ORA refused to sell the company the fish (can't really remember).
Is ORA to become the King Solomon of trade ethics? :roll:

A lot of things can be out of their element and learn to survive without mutating and it can be humorus to watch (well sort of). Who doesn't remember "The Beverly Hillbillies" or "Gilligan's Island" or Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie in "The Simple Life" The hardest part for the freshie Nemos may be adapting to the hot pink gravel or learning to dodge the bobbing action ornaments. :wink: If science can give us a way to keep a couple of TR Nemos in a Sponge Bob tank and thousands of kids get a taste of the wonder of nature I don't see the harm. You can't please everyone.
Mitch
 

JeremyR

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Like I said, if they live a somewhat natural lifespan I don't see a problem with it. If they are always under slight stress and only live a year or 2.. then I think it would be unethical. None of us really know from an article like that what the case really is.
 

Kalkbreath

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Would lack of salinity prevent most clown fish diseases? Or just make them susceptible to fresh water Ick and such ? What diseases show up in brackish systems?
 
A

Anonymous

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JeremyR":1307uvre said:
Like I said, if they live a somewhat natural lifespan I don't see a problem with it. If they are always under slight stress and only live a year or 2.. then I think it would be unethical. None of us really know from an article like that what the case really is.


What percentage of clowns do you think live a normal life span in a marine tank?
 

naesco

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I thought this thread was an early April Fools Joke and did not respond earlier.

Have some of you become so removed from basic ethics that you would consider for one second the possibility of placing marine fish in fresh water? :evil:

No doubt the same ilk that support this, sold those 'cube babies', sold little Nemos to the parents of the kiddies who refused to quiet down until Mom and Dad bought them one, and sell damsals to cycle marine tanks.

Is it possible that basic ethics might replace your quest for the almighty dollar one day???
 

spawner

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There has been a lot of research recently looking at the feasibility of marine fish grow-out in ”fresh water". Right now the USDA is activity looking for marine fish that would be good candidates for freshwater grow-out. Several shrimp farms have opened up in Florida raising marine shrimp in freshwater. Don't assume that it is that harmful to the fish. I don't know how long a clownfish would live in a freshwater tank, but I bet it would out live the amount of time it takes for the owner to kill it from neglect. Many marine fish grow faster at lower salinities (16-18ppt) than in full strength seawater.

My biggest complaints are, would most parents who buy their kid a freshwater nemo really take care of the system. IME when parents are looking for an "easy" tank, they go with freshwater. Which can handle neglect better. The real question is, can freshwater acclimated clownfish live in the typically neglected freshwater tank, will parents spend 20 bucks on a nemo and replace it when the kid kills it as fast as they do with the $1.99 swordtail.
 

JennM

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Interesting discussion. I'm planting firmly on the fence for a while on this one.

I have 6 Mono argentus in my 1000-gallon FOWLR tank... brackish fish that were acclimated to full salinity about 7 years ago. I've seen people keep mollies in freshwater and in full salinity after careful acclimation. However those fish are typically found in estuaries where they can naturally encounter varying conditions.

I'm not so sure I'm comfy with the idea of a "reef fish" being acclimated to a freshwater environment - something tells me there needs to be a line drawn someplace.

As has been stated above, the "fudge factor" that people exercise with freshwater tanks is of concern too. Not the high-end FW hobbyists who take as meticulous care as many reefkeepers, but the ***-mart shoppers who buy goldfish and freshwater angels from a department store and keep them in a tank with an undergravel filter or a corner box filter, overfeed them daily, never test water, and change water once a year whether they need to or not, and forget to add dechlorinator and wipe them all out and start again... This is the market that these creatures will be marketed to... make no mistake. This will legitimize folks not wanting to spend the money and time to adequately set up "Nemo" in a proper habitat. Many freshwater "hobbyists" do not take adequate care of their charges, of course some saltwater keepers don't either but generally they have more money invested and therefore more incentive to take proper care. But when you're talking about 10 cent comets or $1.49 neon tetras.. they are largely considered "disposable" by the buying public.

When the Nemo craze hit (and it's still going strong, BTW), people were stunned to find out that it would cost around $500 or so for a properly sized and equipped tank, filtration and accessories for a "Nemo" tank... and they were even more stunned to find out it would be more if they needed a larger tank if they wanted "Dory" too. ("But don't they only grow to their environment?!") Some spent the money and the time to do it right, but many opted for a vase and a betta, because little Johnny would call any fish, "Nemo"... and the betta was more aptly equipped (not to mention affordable) to handle the level of care that folks were willing to give.

Then again on the other hand... any fish that lives in an aquarium has been adapted to an unnatural environment... and therein lies my conflict.

I think I tend to believe that if we are going to keep these creatures in a glass box, it's probably best to simulate their natural environment to the best of our ability... skeleton and bubbling treasure chest notwithstanding :lol:

Wasn't there a similar movement afloat (pardon the pun) in recent years... aqua babies or something like that?? For whatever reason that didn't fly.

Jenn
 

Expos Forever

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I've seen a 120 gallon filled with freshwater ocellaris at a LFS. This was almost 5 years ago.

I don't know how the fish fared long term.
 

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