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Anonymous
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Yet another reason I loved Marks little garage-based shop so much.... - He didn't have {squat} for drygoods laying around collecting dust and taking up precious floor space thats best served housing livestock!
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Anonymous
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Dizzy wrote:
Well, I meant in their stock tanks or otherwise available for immediate shipping. In other words I can have it the next day for the quoted price.
Why do you ask?
Louey
Well, I meant in their stock tanks or otherwise available for immediate shipping. In other words I can have it the next day for the quoted price.
Why do you ask?
Louey
Mainly because they don't actually tank the stuff they sell. They have a picture on a web site and if someone wants one they go looking on 104th Street where most of the LA wholesalers are located. It's called dropshipping. Read the last 10 pages of the Borneman thread for an eye-opening explanation of how the game works.
Mitch
PS
This is both MD and F&S
Mitch
PS
This is both MD and F&S
I am surprised to hear that DFS ships from LA.
They only charge me $29 total shipping charges (including box charge) for overnighting fish.
I have only order fish from them twice, and that was the charge both times. Both times I had order 5 and 6 fish. Each fish was bagged separately, so it was a pretty heavy box.
I figured they must be located and shipping from where their website say they are. Somewhere in Indiana if memory serves.
Most CA vendors charge over $50 or overnighting to Florida.
Louey
They only charge me $29 total shipping charges (including box charge) for overnighting fish.
I have only order fish from them twice, and that was the charge both times. Both times I had order 5 and 6 fish. Each fish was bagged separately, so it was a pretty heavy box.
I figured they must be located and shipping from where their website say they are. Somewhere in Indiana if memory serves.
Most CA vendors charge over $50 or overnighting to Florida.
Louey
Louey":2m8sw4jt said:
Well *real* Marshall rock can be tricky to get at times. There's really only one collector there that I'm aware of, or only one that gets rock worth a damn. I've been buying from him for 4 years - I'm a consistent customer but even I have hit supply snags at times. Christmas time is especially hard.
Livestock, especially, is a volatile marketplace. Especially wild-caught livestock, is not stamped out of a factory, on-demand. While DFS might have all of 104th street and beyond at their disposal to send jobbers around to find the 5 specimens you want, from 4 different wholesalers, the brick and mortar stores don't have that luxury. I can't order from 4 wholesalers in one week just to fill your order - I'd have to buy their minimum from each... ranges from $250-500 PER VENDOR... So it could take orders of up to $2000 total for me to find your 5 specimens. Then there's freight - when a LFS buys livestock the fish are bagged separately too, and the boxes are heavy. Inverts sometimes get packed together, but we're still paying for all that water containing the livestock to fly across the country. My "small" shipments often weigh 200-300 lbs. Air freight runs about $0.76/lb so I'm spending $150+ to move water.
Rather, the small shops usually deal with one or two wholesalers - which creates the appeal of the big-box wholesaler because a small shop can fill most of its needs in one place.
The drop-shipper who has a peon that can run all over Hell and Creation to find your 5 specimens in 4 places without making the minimum purchase at each one, then pack it up and send it definitely holds appeal for those who don't understand the system. Having said that I'm sure that most wholesalers, large or small, can obtain specimens within reason, so if I have a good rapport with my small wholesaler who gets the bulk of my business, I can get just about anything that the big boys can get, I just might not get it all in one day - or one week. It comes back to the culture of "instant gratification" - we want it all, and want it now.
As for haggling on price - I've found to my relief that not everybody haggles anymore - but plenty do. The discretion is with me as a retailer - would I rather take a couple of dollars less and move the specimen, or hold out for my price? I haggle - and I gamble (owning any business is a gamble!)... Plenty of times I'll take a reasonable offer, but if I know I can get my price from either the person asking, or somebody else, I'll hold out - it just depends on the creature. I don't haggle so much with dry goods, most people haggle over livestock.
I haggle too - don't think I won't ask the department store customer service desk to knock a few bucks off something if there's a stain on it (that I know will wash out!) - and I've often asked, "What's your best price?"
In some countries it is EXPECTED that one will negotiate a price - it's a cultural phenomenon here not to
As for markups on dry goods - again that's a market thing... typically the longer something gathers dust on a shelf, the higher the markup - but not always. In my experience no retailer makes anything or much on glass.. but we have to make some money on the peripherals.
What rots my socks the most is that the perception with some hobbyists is that the LFS is simply out to screw the customer. Not so. Markups are what they are to pay the store's overhead.
I have to sell a lot of stuff in order to pay my $1000/month electric bill, my staff, my rent, inventory, and the other day-to-day costs associated with simply being there. It's not like the difference between the wholesale cost and the retail cost goes straight to the LFS owner's bank account - it doesn't. And if *any* of it does, it's not much.
Retail markups are similar in ANY retail business. People don't ***** about the price of milk, bread, steak, designer jeans, tennis shoes, furniture or electronics... but here's a news flash, with the exception of some loss-leaders, most of those items are marked up many times in order to pay for the store's overhead too.
That's why department stores can have 70% off clearance racks -- because they need to move stuff out at or near cost... which means when it sold for full price, it was that much more.
Jenn
Kalkbreath":3hdr35gi said:
I didn't miss that in Jenn's post. It's difficult to match everyone's lost leader. Wake up, smell the coffee and devise a work around. Otherwise you'll learn that unemployment lines are full of victims first hand.
In this case, I say skip your wholesaler and buy the pumps from MD - postage is free on order over $175. :wink: You could also try to become an MD or DrsF&S franchise store. Better yet, thump your wholesaler about the price.
If the above options don't work, consider trying to band with other B&Ms with a business model similar to what IGA has. Sounds like a good project for AMDA. Burton should already have the purchasing power to kick off such a venture. Clubs do bulk order "powerbuys"; why not B&Ms?
Mag-3's are overpriced no matter how you look at it anyway. I view the Mag-3 as a nitch market pump for smallish protein skimmers like the AquaC Remora and Urchin. A good store really should recommend another quality, but lower priced, pump such as the Maxi-Jet 1200, for just about any other application. For replacement pumps on skimmers one could sell the comparable and more price effective ViaAqua 1300 powerhead with an adapter and call it an upgrade, again an attractive value as compared to the Mag-3. Then again, when someone comes in looking for a part for a brand that the LFS carries they could sell them the part instead of trying to talk them into buying another entire pump, or simply offer to order the part for them. :wink:
kalkbreath":3hdr35gi said:
B&M's have the monopoly on honesty? :lol: Some etailers misrepresent their products just like some B&M stores do. Good etailers and good B&Ms don't lie.
Just for the record, I understand completely about markups.
I do own a business, and I do sell to the general public (even though its a small portion of the general public as most people don't need what we sell)
I don't sell for list though, I sell for a percentage off of list. Did you know the markup on some hose is 300% I just don't think its fair to the customer to sell for that high on something they have to have to run. Even though I have to buy it in 12 foot lengths and I might have a length for 5 - 10 years before selling it.
Maybe that is why I am so freakin poor all the time. I don't know...
I do own a business, and I do sell to the general public (even though its a small portion of the general public as most people don't need what we sell)
I don't sell for list though, I sell for a percentage off of list. Did you know the markup on some hose is 300% I just don't think its fair to the customer to sell for that high on something they have to have to run. Even though I have to buy it in 12 foot lengths and I might have a length for 5 - 10 years before selling it.
Maybe that is why I am so freakin poor all the time. I don't know...
That is interesting about the way that DFS ships their fish from LA. I double checked their site and they freely admit that is the most of the fish are shipped.
I could have sworn that the tracking label that my fish came in showed it leaving from somewhere in the mid-west.
I still prefer to get my livestock from my LFS's. Even if it is more money. I like to see the fish before hand. The first time I ordered from DFS was when they offered Cook Island Scott's Fairy Wrasses on sale for $39 each. This was after my LFS said he couldn't any Scott's. 3 of the Scott's died within the 14 day guarantee period. With that credit I got 6 Lyretail Anthias's (1 male and 5 females). They all survived and are doing great. So as you can see, my opinion on ordering fish on-line is that it is a 50/50 bet. I'd rather not.
Louey
I could have sworn that the tracking label that my fish came in showed it leaving from somewhere in the mid-west.
I still prefer to get my livestock from my LFS's. Even if it is more money. I like to see the fish before hand. The first time I ordered from DFS was when they offered Cook Island Scott's Fairy Wrasses on sale for $39 each. This was after my LFS said he couldn't any Scott's. 3 of the Scott's died within the 14 day guarantee period. With that credit I got 6 Lyretail Anthias's (1 male and 5 females). They all survived and are doing great. So as you can see, my opinion on ordering fish on-line is that it is a 50/50 bet. I'd rather not.
Louey
Well the problem with that is if an item fails and is covered under warranty, the customer returns it to you and you have the hassle of returning it to the etailer that sold it for you - whereas with the wholesaler, you get a return authorization and the driver takes it back when he delivers your next order. No muss, no fuss.SciGuy2":19nw1z3p said:
It's not *just* about price at the wholesale level either - it's about service.
Unless one can afford to buy huge quantities (versus onesies and twosies), buying direct from the manufacturer isn't a practical option either. I don't have room in my store for 100 mag pumps, and I don't have the capital to tie up in them until they sell. That is why wholesalers exist - they are the ones who buy in bulk to distribute to the smaller entities.
I'd never recommend a Via Aqua over a Mag Drive - talk about inferior products
Do you want quality, or do you want price? The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweet price is forgotten. IMO it's better to spend a few dollars more on a quality pump with a good guarantee, that's easy to service and get parts for, versus something cheaper that's more likely to fail and less likely to be fixable - but hey, that's just me. Like I said, that's why there's tons of SeaClones in salvage boxes in attics and basements everywhere As for haggling - some do, some don't. I get people asking for reef club discounts and I just ask them to compare my everyday prices to the other stores' discounted prices - in many cases my prices are better anyway. If they'd rather drive all across town to save a dollar or two - let 'em. I know who my more loyal customers are and I'm not opposed to a little dickering. They usually ask me and no one else. It's not often that I'm not in the shop during working hours, but if I was, I'd bet they wouldn't ask (maybe I need more time off!)... and if they did, I trust my business partner and staff to make a fair deal, but they also know if they aren't sure, to just leave it be. Never had a problem yet over it.
Jenn
Well I guess we all have to do what feels comfortable to us and still allows us to survive in this sometimes challenging industry. I think many of us including me, start out by letting our businesses run us. Later if we're lucky and successful, we get to run the business our own way. I believe that dealing with the public changes you in some ways, and that over the long haul it probably hardens you to some extent. I'm nice to everyone that walks in the door, but I won't let anyone take advantage of me. Around here it's the ones who don't ask for special deals that get the best treatment. That's just me being me.
dizzy":3djxqzkd said:
So don't haggle. That is always your right. Note that I didn't say that you should give in to their requests, just that you shouldn't get upset about it.
In general, if I don't like the posted prices in a store I leave. However, I have "discussed prices" on at least three occasions with LFSs over the years, but only because I valued those merchants. Tell me if the following requests are unfair haggling: 1) "I see that you carry Oceanic salt in 25 gallon packages. I plan on raising the spawns from my clownfish soon and will be needing two hundred gallons of mix each month for the next four months. What’s the cheapest package size and best pricing you can work out for me?" 2) "I’m going to be needing 10 or more sponge filter kits, and a bunch of extra sponges in the near future. I’ve had good luck with the Azoo Oxygen Plus brand but I can’t find it locally and have had to buy it online in the past. Can you get that brand from your wholesaler? I realize that you might need to charge a higher price in order to make your margin but can we work out a price break if I purchase them in quantity to offset that somewhat if need be?" 3) "I’m going to be needing 50-100 snails in the future and I recall that you sometimes have them on sale. Do you think that you’ll have them on sale within the next few months?"
More to ponder:
How many LFSs give livestock deals to frequent customers? How many LFSs keep their cherry picks in the "not for sale" tank until "Joey big bucks" shows up? Is that fair? I've went into stores with big dollar friends and seen them get lots of perks that I didn't get over the years. I've seen a lot of complaining about cherry picking at the wholesale level, but how about the cherry picking that goes on at the retail level?
How about those 10% off for reef club members cards? Is that fair?
BTW, I've been a customer in your shop, Mitch. I liked the quality of your store and found your prices fair enough to discourage the etail option.
-Lee
SciGuy2":337v5y1h said:coraladdict":337v5y1h said:
The knuck said that it retails online at $39 and the LFS sells it at $180.
Thus, the percent difference would be:
% dif = |A - B|/A * 100%
or,
% dif = |$39 - $180|/$39 * 100%
which works out to a % dif of aprox. 361.5%, when A = $39, and B = $180. Of course, all of this depends on my failing math skills. :lol: I'm also figuring that sales tax for the purchase at the B&M offsets the P&H from the online store.
I doubt that most of the B&M retailers here would defend that large of a mark-up as a realistic value in most U.S. markets. Bottom line in this case: the retailer had a mark-up that the market wouldn't bear, ended up trying to sell something other than what was wanted, and was unwilling to offer the service of trying to obtain what was requested.
Personally, I would have pulled the part that was needed off of the pump I had in stock, ordered a replacement for my pump and charged $10-15 for the part that was needed; or would have volunteered to obtain the part that was needed as a special order. Special orders are nice because they get people back in the store.
Knuck, would either of those options have made you happy?
the numbers that i came up with were based on kalk's first post where he said the wholesale price was 29 and he sold it for 189.00 i didn't know at the time that he couldn't get the pump for the same price. looks like he pays 39.00 not 29.00. i was misstaken. but when i divide 189.00 by 39.00 i come of with 5 or 500%. i was doing it backwards and my decimal was set at 0 on my calc. when i moved it to two it came in at 485% by dividing the bigger number by the smaller one. multiplying 39 x 5 = 195.00 not 189.00 wrong again!
SciGuy2":a2i2g3ji said:
I'll comment on this since I have fallen victim to this very scenario enough to be embarrassing if I admitted how many times.
Would you apply the same principle to Walmart? Your local grocery store? "Look here miss manager, I am having a baby in march. I am going to need 4 gallons of soy formula every single week for the next 52 weeks. What's the best price you can give me on this forumla? What's that? How do you know if you give me the price now I'll be back next week to keep giving you my business you ask? Umm, how about scout's honor? Will that suffice?"
MMMM, I love whoppers. I think tomorrow I will go to Burger King and tell the manager there I intend on consuming 3 whoppers a week for the next three years cause I plan on becoming my own zip code. Wonder what kind of deal they'll give me on that days purchase.
People often ask me if I will honor the cost of something, say shipping for example, from some other place. I just tell them I sure will if they allow me to raise my prices to match where they are looking as well.
It doesn't hurt to ask, but I can definitely see how it can be insulting as well. All depends on the individual person I guess. People who continually patronize the store aren't wrong in expecting a little something here or there, but the person who walks in for the first time demanding to get a deal right off the bat...nuh huh.
One thing I have always found amusing though. Without fail, might as well be one of those unwritten laws of the universe, whenever a customer is told something they don't want to hear (like I will not let you buy that carpet anemone for your icandescent lit 10 gallon) they suddenly turn into an independantly wealthy person with $500K stuffed under their mattress at home that they were planning on spending in your store tuesday, but now will go somewhere else. There's variations to the story of course, but the result is always comical.
my realationship with my lfs is a lot different than walmart. i don't go in there with the intent to haggle but if i show interest in an expensive fish or more importantly when i bought my set up the owner made a deal. if he has a fish that he has had for awhile and i show interest in it he will give me a price without me asking for it that is a lot better than what it is listed for. dry goods are a different story. i would never ask for a discount on a bucket of salt because i know his margins are slim on that stuff and he is not only competeing with online venders but there are big box stores that are cheaper. i still buy my salt and additives with him even though there is a big store closer that i could save 10-20%. i figure he gives me deals on livestock so i will buy my dry stuff there.
JennM":2vz1msfm said:
It's nice to hear something good about a wholesaler. I was starting to wonder why you B&M folks used them at all. :wink: There has been a trend in this forum of retailers blaming wholesalers for their competitive disadvantages. Look at the major threads in this forum lately: wholesalers drop shipping for etailers, wholesalers allowing etailers to cherry pick livestock inventories prior to B&Ms getting their chance, etailers selling dry goods online for less than the B&Ms can buy them wholesale.
Just the same, I have to ask: is the service the wholesaler provides worth paying $50 wholesale for a pump that etails for $39? I persist; what's wrong with a centralized B&M purchasing cooperative model? I don't see where mailing defective products back to the co-op once a month takes any more effort than getting a return authorization and sending them with a driver. A centralized co-op could bulk order and aggressively pursue economies of scale similar to the big box etailers, they could also provide warehousing space.
Wait. Could this co-op model be called a wholesale, etail operation for the B&M? :lol:
coraladdict":2yl3xdqg said:SciGuy2":2yl3xdqg said:coraladdict":2yl3xdqg said:
The knuck said that it retails online at $39 and the LFS sells it at $180.
Thus, the percent difference would be:
% dif = |A - B|/A * 100%
or,
% dif = |$39 - $180|/$39 * 100%
which works out to a % dif of aprox. 361.5%, when A = $39, and B = $180. Of course, all of this depends on my failing math skills. :lol: I'm also figuring that sales tax for the purchase at the B&M offsets the P&H from the online store.
I doubt that most of the B&M retailers here would defend that large of a mark-up as a realistic value in most U.S. markets. Bottom line in this case: the retailer had a mark-up that the market wouldn't bear, ended up trying to sell something other than what was wanted, and was unwilling to offer the service of trying to obtain what was requested.
Personally, I would have pulled the part that was needed off of the pump I had in stock, ordered a replacement for my pump and charged $10-15 for the part that was needed; or would have volunteered to obtain the part that was needed as a special order. Special orders are nice because they get people back in the store.
Knuck, would either of those options have made you happy?
the numbers that i came up with were based on kalk's first post where he said the wholesale price was 29 and he sold it for 189.00 i didn't know at the time that he couldn't get the pump for the same price. looks like he pays 39.00 not 29.00. i was misstaken. but when i divide 189.00 by 39.00 i come of with 5 or 500%. i was doing it backwards and my decimal was set at 0 on my calc. when i moved it to two it came in at 485% by dividing the bigger number by the smaller one. multiplying 39 x 5 = 195.00 not 189.00 wrong again!
I'm cool with all of the numbers presented, coraladdict. The point knucklehead made is the same.
Is any retailer here going to say that markups in the 300% to 700% range don't provide justifiable reason to go etail?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Class? Anyone? Anyone? :lol:
JustPhish":30rcydo6 said:
Big differences: Wal-Mart doesn't work with 300% to 700% markups; Wal-Mart price matches competitors.
I didn't ask for a price match to Pet Supply Plus, I just wanted to know what he could do knowing that he would not have to shelf the salt. I had done several special orders prior to this one paying deposits to show my good faith so I wasn't a flight risk either. Turns out the wholesaler was running a deal that month on 50 gallon jugs of salt, making the cost per gallon just about the same as the larger pails at the chain store. We both were shocked. 8O I ended up buying a lot of salt that month. I think he piggy backed on all of my bulk orders as well. Win-win.
JustPhish":30rcydo6 said:
Corporate chains don't have a lot of pricing flexibility do they?
SciGuy2":3c60zpex said:
There's no difference IMHO. Not every store operates on a 300 to 700% markup either. I find it ironic that people are more apt to haggle and beat down the owner of a mom and pop store who more than likely needs the money to put food on the table over another store which only needs the money to line their pockets.
Your one situation may have been a win/win but how often do you really think it works out that way? Why is it that people don't apply their beliefs to all the places where they shop? Regardless of chain, corporate or sole proprietor?
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