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Kalkbreath

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Good doctor":260ax957 said:
I might add that there will be another huge player in the direct shipping business shortly. I will have to compete with them whether I like it or not .
Perhaps Seagrest purchasing Sun Pet here in Atlanta is part of the up and coming big player thing Race is forecasting?
Bet there will be a re-entering into the drop ship market from ATL.

Aquarium stuffers might reappear as "Sea Stuffers" or such?
 

clarionreef

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It gets worse...
Petco just announced that they have plans to double their number of stores from 765 to 1,500 over the next decade.
They will need twice as many fish as they take now as the supply of many species decreases.
By missing the chance to reform collecting practices this past decade....we will now see fish populations come under increasing stress.
They need a rest instead of doubled pressure.

The would be reformers have made hay out of the issues and a joke out of the remedy. Pointing out and GOOGLE SEARCHING a problem does not mean you can fix it.

All the great marketers of marinelife seem to be blissfully unaware that its not a manufactured product and that there are serious issues in the supply chain. The "let MAC do it" irresponsibility left us with a decade of trivial action and accelerated damage to the collecting areas.
Another decade like that will see a critical choke off of supplies in region after region as demand rockets.
Ohh, we'll always have brown scopas tangs, algae blennies and turbos....but so many live coral dependant fishes will suffer increasingly.

This ignorance of supply side developments make a mockery of conservation and management, sustainability and stewardship.
Those terms have been used mainly as purely public relations gambits....with no actual changes in behavior.
These words used to actually mean something....but they now have become routine market jargon....used by the worst offenders of sustainable trade practice.
What Petco, Pet Club, Petland,most importers and the on-line guys don't know about the ocean and it limits could fill an ocean.
This sales culture of ours will surely become a victim of its own success...unless it supports its own protection of supply and policies to insure it.
There is no talent beyond the trade that can fix this...as MAC and their predeccessors have proven conclusively.
It truly is for the trade to heal itself....and stop giggling as it watches the NGO-amatuers fail.
Steve
 

dizzy

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Yep Meriwether did buy Sunpet alright. http://www.meriwethercapital.net/activity.htm

RECENT ACTIVITY

01/06 Purchased Sun Pet, Ltd.

12/05 Purchased Wood Pro, Inc.

07/05 Purchased Cramer Company

04/05 Purchased Blue Springs Hatchery

02/05 Purchased Norton's Tampa Bay Fisheries

05/03 Sold Sherwin Alumina

12/02 Purchased Segrest Farms

11/01 Sold C & W Fabricators

12/00 Purchased Sherwin Alumina

12/00 Purchased M. H. Rhodes

11/00 Purchased Abeco, Ltd

06/00 Invested in Redox Brands

12/99 Purchased Bullseye Environmental

06/98 Sold EdgeTech

01/98 Sold Victoreen

06/96 Purchased C & W Fabricators

12/95 Purchased South-Tek

07/95 Purchased EdgeTech

08/94 Purchased Frost Engineering

07/94 Sold Chemstone Corporation

02/94 Purchased K. Miller Tools
 

dizzy

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Perhaps Race should cut a deal with this Meriwether Capital group. There could be this one big happy MAC certifed monopoly. I think that's where we're headed anyway. Why wait?
Mitch
 

Kalkbreath

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Sun Pet sells 200,000 bucks a week in fish.
F&S sells 25,000 a week.
I think the Meri gentleman would rather take the good doctors business away with a new competing online Big box set up then to buy out the Vets.
Although I think they (Meri) might be interested in Buying the parent co of QM / OtO .
"God rest the Meri gentleman if that happens!
Three major wholesalers, Miami Atl Lax.
The good doctor wouldn't stand a chance.........
Thank goodness for the Brick and Mortar camaraderie thing........ just not the same with an online shopping cart!
 

dizzy

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Segrest was in the Tampa area last time I was there. I believe Elwyn has other holdings in the LA area as well. I don't know if those fell to Meriwether or not. The noose is beginning to tighten. 8O
 

aquaticvet1

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Hi Mitch ,
As you know , MAC from a marketing perspective may benefit retailers but will do nothing for my sales as there is no category to certify etailers . In fact , if there is a consumer demand for MAC fish and your store is certified then you and other MAC retailers would have a distinct advantage over me . I do not have a problem with that . I am in fact shipping some MAC fish today but in playing with the guidelines, I make no mention of it . ( i.e. the fish stays certified if it is shipped to a certified retailer but not if it is shipped to the hobbyist --hmm. )

I do not see MAC as being the cure all and they are indeed making rather slow progress. When I converse with professional organizations such as those on the Humane and Veterinary front , MAC is at least an organization that I can list as trying . Reform is a complex issue and will take demanding work from individuals such as Steve R. but this should not be exclusionary of other efforts such as the MAC and mine on the animal health political front . Remember that I come from a background of dealing with federal organizations such as the FDA , USDA and the EPA. I can assure you that we should unite and work towards a common goal or the USDA and the humane groups will determine how we function . That would not be the end of the hobby but do we need intervention ?
I also feel that a visable forum such as Reefs.org should concentrate on what the industry is doing correctly and address the other issues that need improving in a united and constructive fashion . Accusing each other of devastating the reefs and being parasites is just sending a message to the public that it is time to end the hobby of reef keeping . It makes it very difficult for me to present the hobby in a positive light when Reefs.org constantly is littered with public posts speaking of devastation and parasitism with no united message to address such .
I propose that we agree to disagree but together we work towards plural solutions recognizing that each may benefit the hobby but not always us as individual business entities. All is not negative, I see much positive in this hobby.
Again , I am behind the MAC but if it is successful it will benefit retail and be detrimental to etail( me) . I nevertheless embrace it because its virtues are right for the hobby. Perhaps The MAC will fail but why not give it a chance ? Worse case scenerio is that we move on and learn from the experience .
Lastly, Kevin Kohen and I would like to invite all of you to attend our Coral Conference in June 2006 . It would give us some personal time off the public boards to discuss (and even debate) issues important to the hobby. Please think about it.

Race Foster, DVM

P.S. Thanks to those of you that value my input and have encouraged me to stay with the board. I appreciate your messages and will present the hobby in a positive light.
 

JennM

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Respectfully, Dr. Foster - where's there *any* benefit in being MAC certified?

There's another thread here and there has been quite a bit of email discussion concerning recertifications, or lack thereof, of facilities that were previously certified.

The absence of certified fish notwithstanding, several of the "certified" facilities opted not to renew their certifications because of the cost and other factors, versus the return on their "investment". Since there aren't any MAC certified fish to be had, what's the point of being a certified facility?

Once that all happened, MAC decided to renew those certifications, gratis - interesting way to attempt to save face, but most of us are clever enough to see through that.

Initially I was in favour of what the MAC stood for, but over the last several years I've seen and heard a lot of hype but no substance. Glad I didn't spend all that time and money on a certification that isn't worth the paper it's printed on. About 3 years ago David Vosseler spent a ton of time on the MAC's dime, on the phone to me trying to convince me of its virtues - to no avail - by then the writing was already on the wall - MAC is useless IMO and until it proves itself otherwise, IMO it's not worth a tinker's damn to anybody.

To say that MAC's progress is slow is one of the bigger understatements I've heard in recent years :)

As for this forum, the Industry Forum in particular - I think it's best for all readers if we tell it like it is. There's plenty of good AND bad posted here. Things like the cyanide issue and smuggled livestock have been the industry's dirty little secret for too long. Similarly, etailers who drop-ship versus etailers who actually keep everything they sell in their own holding facility is something that most hobbyists weren't aware of. I personally think the consumer has a right to know if what they are getting has been turned and burned out of a wholesaler, or if the vendor has kept the creature in his/her holding facility for a time before reselling it.

It's amazing how few hobbyists really give any thought to how the livestock comes to be in our tanks. All they know is that they come to the store and the fish are there - they have little or no idea how the fish got there, where they came from or how they were collected. I try to enlighten all who will listen about the origins of the specific animals, and the issues that stem from their collection. Many are shocked to hear about cyanide - they thought that problem was "over" in the 70s and many more never knew the problem existed in the first place, let alone that it still exists today.

In the long run, exposure and discussion of these very real issues does a service to the reefs, the livestock, the industry players and the hobbyist. Many hobbyists are still blissfully unaware of some of these issues, and if somebody comes away enlightened by some of the "outings" here, then I think that's a good thing.

We do plenty to help each other here too - Goodness knows I've learned a ton of stuff in this forum, made good contacts, figured out who to avoid, and yes, even who to boycott ;) I've shared my little snippets of knowledge too.

It's just like anything else - got to take the good and the bad. There are many wonderful aspects to this hobby and this industry, but unfortunately there is also a good pile of dirty laundry too. The best way to help the situation is not to be part of the problem.

Jenn
 

aquaticvet1

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Jenn ,
Are you telling the hobbyist that an acclimated fish shipped direct to their door is not at least on occasion better than one that has been shipped multiple times through the retail chain. Also please do not forget that we do personally tank ( in Wisconsin ) most of our corals and an expanding number of fish . We also have an excellent retail fish and coral store . In the end ,just as Cabelas , Bass Pro and Gander Mountain ,I very much expect that we will have an ever increasing stake in retail . I believe, but will not promise, that in the future our retail partner or segment will dwarf our etail portion. In stating that it should be evident that I am very much looking out for retail as well as etail . Multi-channel distribution is our ultimate goal .
As far as the MAC , I agree their goal is a long way off . I just feel that anything is better than nothing . Few ventures including most of mine were successful without modifications . We will see what emerges.

I might add here that I am an accredited Veterinarian by the USDA to certify animals for interstate , intrastate and international shipments and I am concerned about where things are headed domestically . Game fish in some states now need to be certified by a state veterinarian to be transported or shipped from state to state . Disease transfer is the main concern here . It has not happened yet ---but Koi and other fish also harbor some of these diseases and will raise discussions . The entire hobby including fish shipments to your store potentially could be a subject . I do not think that we need a state veterinarian routinely inspecting and quarantining our wholesale, holding and retail facilities. I know that it sounds like it is out there and I would not suggest that we panic but we should be ready for these issues to surface . I am just putting another behind the scenes view on the complexity of potential
issues facing the industry .
Thank you for your input Jenn . I do not agree that I am dirty laundry but if I am-- I will try a little bleach.

Thanks , Race
 

clarionreef

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Jenn wrote;
As for this forum, the Industry Forum in particular - I think it's best for all readers if we tell it like it is. There's plenty of good AND bad posted here. Things like the cyanide issue and smuggled livestock have been the industry's dirty little secret for too long...

You mean like this????

Feds: Area shark poachers snared
Oaklander with Alameda shop among accused
By Josh Richman, STAFF WRITER



The federal government's jaws have clamped down on an Oakland man, a San Leandro pastor and four other men accused of poaching and smuggling protected California leopard sharks from the Bay, federal prosecutors said Wednesday.
A federal grand jury indictment handed up Jan. 24 andunsealed Tuesday says the men conspired to violate the federal Lacey Act, which bans knowingly selling or buying fish against underlying law — in this case, a state law that prohibits taking California leopard sharks less than 36 inches long.

The indictment says the men schemed from 2000 to 2004 to harvest thousands of undersized sharks from the Bay and then sell and ship them to pet trade distributors across the country and in Europe. Specifically, about 465 juvenile leopard sharks were sold to companies in Miami; Chicago; Houston; Romulus, Mich.; Milford, Conn.; the Netherlands; and the United Kingdom.

Among those indicted is the Rev. Kevin Thompson, 48, of San Leandro, pastor of the Bay Area Family Church on Washington Avenue in San Leandro, which is a ministry of the Holy Spirit Association-Unification Worldwide Church founded by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

Prosecutors say Thompson and the church co-owned at least one boat used in the scheme and that Thompson paid Hiroshi Ishikawa of San Leandro and another, unnamed fisherman to catch the sharks, later depositing some proceeds from the sharks' sales into his

Adult leopard sharks in the Coastal Wetland and Aviary exhibit at the Monterey Bay Aquarium, where three young sharks seized in the investigation are also housed. (Monterey Bay Aquarium/Randy Wilder)

personal bank account.

Also indicted are:

-Vincent Ng, 43, of Oakland, owner of Amazon Aquarium Inc. in Alameda;

-Sion Lim, 39, of San Francisco, who owned Bayside Aquatics in Oakland;

-John Newberry, 34, of Hayward, who worked at Pan Ocean Aquarium Inc. in Hayward and earlier was a commercial fisherman;

-Ishikawa, 36, a member of the Bay Area Family Church and a fisherman; and

-Ira Gass, 53, of Azusa in Southern California, a marine aquarium dealer who operated Indorica Fish Imports.

Thompson, Newberry, Ishikawa, Ng and Gass are each charged with one count of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act. Also, Thompson and Newberry each faces three counts, Ng faces two counts,

My, my....
Steve
 

dizzy

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Oh my, my is right. Romulus, Mich it says. 8O That must be none other than regular MACNA speaker and coral fragger extraordinare Dick Perrin of Tropiquarium. 8O What a small world. A truck driver from Michigan was in my store a couple of months or so ago, telling me about a smooth hound he bought there. He said they had a sh!t pot load of them there. He said they had leopards too. I told the guy I thought they must have been illegally obtained. Oh well at least the guy was planning on getting a really large tank made to house it.
Mitch
PS
Race do you guys haggle up there in Wisconsin?
 

spawner

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Race,

Do you need my Fequent Flyer # when booking my tickets? Or do we have to pay ;)

Also most LFS get fish/corals that have been shipped with the same number of shipments as hobbyist getting fish from you.

Exporter--importer/wholesaler---store/hobbyist.

Exporter---importer/DRFS---hobbyist.


While we are beating up the drop shippers I have a question.

Is cutting out the normal flow of goods, an LFS getting goods via direct from the collector/transshipping or from an Aquaculture facility, thus skipping the wholesalers same thing as a hobbyist skipping the LFS?

What's the thought on that. Is it ok for a FL collector to sell direct to stores, ok for ORA to skip out the wholesalers and sell direct?
 

aquaticvet1

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Steve ,
Poaching is another serious issue . I knew about the latest incident before I ever saw it here . It needs to be dealt with but not at the expense of the other issues .
Andy , some fish are shipped before being redistributed down the chain . And remember, bagged and driven is "shipping again" as opposed to shipped direct to the hobbyist from a wholesaler . Simply count the number of times that a fish or coral enters a bag (or count the number of associated acclimations from import to hobbyist) . Once in the direct ship model , at least twice when purchased from retail stores-- including mine . I am not saying that either method is substandard but as an animal health expert ,any way that I review it-- for the stress on the animal and associated illnesses---- one bagging (or associated acclimation) is better than two and three. Hope to see you in Wisconsin and Steve you are welcome as well.

Race Foster
 

dizzy

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aquaticvet1":6d5plsrx said:
Andy , some fish are shipped before being redistributed down the chain . And remember, bagged and driven is "shipping again" as opposed to shipped direct to the hobbyist from a wholesaler . Simply count the number of times that a fish or coral enters a bag (or count the number of associated acclimations from import to hobbyist) . Once in the direct ship model , at least twice when purchased from retail stores-- including mine . I am not saying that either method is substandard but as an animal health expert ,any way that I review it-- for the stress on the animal and associated illnesses---- one bagging (or associated acclimation) is better than two and three. Hope to see you in Wisconsin and Steve you are welcome as well.

Race Foster

Race I'm not sure how bagged and driven is really that much different from shipped direct to the hobbyist. Almost all fish are bagged and driven. Usually it is driven to the airport by the wholesaler headed to the retailer. How is it different if let's just say ERI bags up a fish for MD, and MD drives it back to their facility nearby to be picked up by FedEx , or if OtoO bags it up for you and FedEx picks it up there at Quality? If anything would make much of a difference it would be length of time in the bags IMO. Are you saying that your fish reach the hobbyist tanks quicker than the ones MD sends out? :?

Also I think it makes very good sense to buy a fish that is known to be eating. Anyone with any paid dues at all in this industry should realize wholesalers don't feed fish very often, due to ammonia problems that would occur during shipping. I can tell you with absolutely no doubt what so ever, that an experienced dealer such as myself knows far more about the eating habbits of difficult fish, than the average hobbyists you are shipping to. We also have a much larger selection of foods to offer at our disposal. So what I'm suggesting here is that at least some of the fish that you dropship out and then later refuse to eat and die, might have been saved if they had landed at a knowledgeable pet store for a little TLC first.
Mitch
 
A

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dizzy":2b2j7026 said:
So what I'm suggesting here is that at least some of the fish that you dropship out and then later refuse to eat and die, might have been saved if they had landed at a knowledgeable pet store for a little TLC first.
Mitch

This is the definitive reason for B&M having a big advantage over e-tail, IMHO. Hobbiests only care about a livestock guarantee until something actually dies and they have to pay a 2nd shipping charge. Seeing a fish with my own eyes and seeing it eat and behave normally goes a lot farther than saving $20 on said fish.

However, as stated before, the general hobby populace could care less about that fact. The dollar is the bottom line.

Unfortunatley, as much as I respect with Dr. Race has done, that is why Wal-Mart exists, and that is why Dr. Foster & Smith exists.

Peace,

Chip
 

JennM

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aquaticvet1":1lkmsxel said:
Jenn ,
Are you telling the hobbyist that an acclimated fish shipped direct to their door is not at least on occasion better than one that has been shipped multiple times through the retail chain. Also please do not forget that we do personally tank ( in Wisconsin ) most of our corals and an expanding number of fish . We also have an excellent retail fish and coral store . In the end ,just as Cabelas , Bass Pro and Gander Mountain ,I very much expect that we will have an ever increasing stake in retail . I believe, but will not promise, that in the future our retail partner or segment will dwarf our etail portion. In stating that it should be evident that I am very much looking out for retail as well as etail . Multi-channel distribution is our ultimate goal .

Are you telling me that a fish purchased from a reputable wholesaler, and tanked and rested and fed at a retailer before it is purchased by a hobbyist, who has the opportunity to observe the specimen and even leave it on deposit until he/she is satisfied, is worse than turn-and-burn out of a wholesaler, direct to hobbyist, sight unseen? That one "extra" step in the chain of custody- wholesaler to retailer to hobbyist, versus wholesaler to hobbyist, can make a world of difference to the fish - AND to the hobbyist. Since most hobbyists still don't quarantine, it's an advantage to the hobbyist to observe the specimen in the dealer's tank before it comes home. If they buy sight unseen, they stand more of a risk of introducing a sick or stressed fish into their display - and it happens all the time.

How does a customer know, when placing their order, whether the creature(s) they are buying are coming out of your loving facility, or whether Joe Jobber is grabbing them out of a wholesaler's facility?
As far as the MAC , I agree their goal is a long way off . I just feel that anything is better than nothing . Few ventures including most of mine were successful without modifications . We will see what emerges.

I might add here that I am an accredited Veterinarian by the USDA to certify animals for interstate , intrastate and international shipments and I am concerned about where things are headed domestically . Game fish in some states now need to be certified by a state veterinarian to be transported or shipped from state to state . Disease transfer is the main concern here . It has not happened yet ---but Koi and other fish also harbor some of these diseases and will raise discussions . The entire hobby including fish shipments to your store potentially could be a subject . I do not think that we need a state veterinarian routinely inspecting and quarantining our wholesale, holding and retail facilities. I know that it sounds like it is out there and I would not suggest that we panic but we should be ready for these issues to surface . I am just putting another behind the scenes view on the complexity of potential
issues facing the industry .

I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV. While I am by no means attemptying to sully your reputation as a doctor of veterinary medicine, I fail to see how that is an advantage when the livestock you are selling doesn't always pass through your doors. The image portrayed by using your title in your company name, as well as in your visual advertising implies something superior to the lay-person operation. Perhaps the intention is to convey the impression that everything passes rigorous standards testing before the hobbyist receives it - but is that indeed the case? Do you personally assess each specimen?

I'm not accredited. I'm just a longtime hobbyist-turned-business owner, but I DO inspect every creature that comes into my shop and leaves it, and so does my staff. My policy is that we don't sell anything that I wouldn't feel comfortable placing in my own display, and if I'm in doubt, I keep it here and treat it as needed until it is in satisfactory condition.

Jenn
 

aquaticvet1

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Hi Jenn,
Thank you for your comments. I am quite sure that you are a very good livestock handler and a great asset to the hobby. I have never questioned that.

I also employ excellent livestock personnel to examine each and every fish . Kevin Kohen oversees the training and methodology used in our Wisconsin facility. Additionally he provides training to the L.A. operation . I believe that Kevin and his employeees are second to none in the industry. I do not personally examine every fish but you can bet that if I am providing a 14 and 30 day 100% money back guarantee on livestock then the death rate is extremely low. Yes , I do PERSONALLY give 100% of the customer's money back including shipping and the customer does not have to return or send a picture of a dead fish---- I simply take their word for it. No haggles. The point is that my fish and corals are so healthy that only a tiny fraction die in the hobbyist's tank . Let me repeat--only a tiny fraction of my fish die within a 14 day period and when they do-- 100% of the customers money including shipping is returned. I am astounded by our success and apparently so are our customers.

As far as my credentials , they are not real important when it comes to examining a fish. Credentials are however paramount when one is addressing issues with regulatory agencies and professional organizations. I think that many of the political issues pertaining to the hobby are best discussed with an educated and trained individual. For instance, it would be very difficult for the average pet store owner to have much of a voice with Fish and Wildlife, USCOP, USDA , Humane organizations ,PIJAC, APPMA and Universities to name a few . I have spent 31 yrs. in this arena. Personally I think that I have much to offer the hobby--- beyond a bag of fish. Having said that, there are many concerns to the industry which others can do better than me. Please remember that I am the one to propose a UNITED approach to issues so that we may all utilize our talents--- whatever they may be. We would get more accomplished and the hobby would be better for it.

Oh well, thanks again and best of luck---------Race Foster
 

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