Borneman's Reefkeeping Magazine article

[clarionreef]

Peter,
Perhaps a better way to show the absurdity of the MAC Math is to agree with them.Lets see. It would go like this;

Yes, there are 4,000 collectors working in the Philippines.
They each catch only a conservative 40 fish per day.
For a total of 160,000 a day.
For 240 days a year....
for a total of 38,400,000 fish a year.
Suurre ...yea....Thats about right.
Nothing makes the proposition look sillier then simple agreement with it.
Steve
PS. Actually, if you added an equal amount of damsels, it would be 76,800,000 fish taken.

 

[dizzy]

That's not exactly fair. Mark said most of the collectors are part time. I know Mark is not trying to mislead anyone. Mark is over there trying to make a difference. He is sacrificing much to be there. He deserves more slack than that. I think CCIF compiled much of the "questionable" data all in one place. They see this trade as a meal ticket and were trying to show the green investors how they would make good ROI. MAC and CCIF are not the same, but they may have some of the same funding streams. Reef Check might get funding from Packard too. It's the Tide Center connection that really bothers me. They funded CCIF and SeaWeb. Sea Web has a certification schemes that appear to be similar to MAC's may have used a similar template. Monterey Bay aquarium is connected to the Sea Web program. They were started with a grant from Packard, and are run by a Packard. They pulled all books on aquarium keeping out of the gift shop, and appear to be taking an anti-home aquarium stance now. It may spread to other public aquariums. Our industry is in the crosshairs. Make no mistake about that.

 

[clarionreef]

Mitch,
Then cut it in half to part time and we still get an incredulous 19,000,000 fish and 38,000,000 if you add damsels.
In the absence of real information, popular info spread by all the wrong folks gain currency.

The oft estimated available data thing tends to train all the characters in the food chain of error..
They alight on an error, cite and repeat it til it sticks...and an authoritative estmate is born.
I too expect independance from Mark and hope that he learns who hes running with before too long.

He is not there to illuminate the terrain for them. Hes there to show that they have an "aquarium trade guy" on the team.

Steve
PS. The part time designation can help pad the numbers when convenient and be retracted when not. Its a handy thing.

 

[dizzy]

http://drrons.blogspot.com/

"Anyway, Anthony, Eric, and I all get paid for our ruminations. Without the pay, you would be faced with a thundering silence from us. Now, did we get paid from RC? Most assuredly. We will be getting a bit more at the new site, but not a lot more, from the folks we are negotiating with. Money, in and of itself, was obviously not the reason for the move."

 

[clarionreef]

"Anyway, Anthony, Eric, and I all get paid for our ruminations. Without the pay, you would be faced with a thundering silence from us."

He actually said that?
How ill-advised.
Steve
The new forum should be called the PDF.....ie. The Prima Donna Forum

 

[Kalkbreath]

Whats really funny is that these self proclaimed experts actually think hobbyists will frequent this new forum they are setting up?
Web forums live or die based on the interaction of its ordinary members, not the paid guest writers........as evident by the response over on RC , Me thinks most hobbyists dont really care for this "my way or the bye way" attitude anywho.
Every wonder why Air America cant gain listeners? Its a one sided soliloquy. If hobbyists wanted to be told that there is one and only one way to look at an issue , we would all still be content on watching the roto spay bar go round and round on our nicely rolled DLS trickle filters.

Who would like to bet that , like Air America radio.......Eric and Calfo will be moderating this new board?
For the same reasons why Air America has never read on air the umpteen United Nations resolutions in which Sadam responded to with a middle finger,
this group of reeformers will attempt to circumnavigate any and all balanced debate. Choosing to run and hide behind a Fire wall of insulation by running and controlling their own discussion board can only lead to an empty transparent soliloquy...............which ironically is the direct opposite of what makes the modern reef discussion board so popular!

 

[dizzy]

Moved post to Pro cyanide thread.

 

[clarionreef]

this group of reeformers ????
Kalk,
These guys are not reformers...
Their just small business owners plying their wares and marketing thier literature....Very American.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Not to mention the cost to recharge the batteries, since quite a bit of the US power grid gets the electricity from coal burning power plants.

I'm saving the planet by driving my Honda hybrid....NOT!

This is just pure ignorance.

There are no mass-marketed plug-in hybrids. Hybrid batteries get charged from regenerative braking and excess engine power. They don't plug in, and do not rely on the electrical grid in any fashion.

Gotta love the Internet mythinformation machine...

:roll:

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Either the number of PI fish entering the world is greater in Europe then the United States, or the true number of collectors working in PI is actually a few hundred not thousands.
:wink:

Or it is in the low-end four figure range, but they do not collect year-round due to local conditions. An example would be Bagac, where the collectors can only collect maybe four months out of the year on a good year, with three months more common, all due to where they physically are...

I can easily believe that the number is close to 2000, with only a few hundred , up to 1000 individuals, working at a given point in time.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[spawner]

How would anyone expect to even come close to the numbers of collectors in the PI when the state of florida doesn't even really know how many collectors are out there.

 

[mkirda]

How would anyone expect to even come close to the numbers of collectors in the PI when the state of florida doesn't even really know how many collectors are out there.

By having gone to the villages where they are located, and knowing the villages that are part of the trade.

Mike

 

[spawner]

Mike,

Of course that is how you would figure out how many collectors there are out there, but does anyone have this data? The state of Florida just this year revised and reduced the number of permits. So now you know how many collectors their are in florida, but still we don't have any real data amount of time they are working and the numbers of animals they are collecting. I only know of a handful of full time aquarium collectors in the Keys, but you can get a revised list with many names on the list. I would supect the same is true about PI. Giving a numbers out doesn't work well when you don't have good numbers.

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

Of course that is how you would figure out how many collectors there are out there, but does anyone have this data? {snip} I would supect the same is true about PI. Giving a numbers out doesn't work well when you don't have good numbers.

Yes, people have "the data", but it isn't going to be as precise as you want it to be, not in the Philippines.

The best bet would be to go to the villlages and get a specific number of collectors either through the local permitting process or via the membership numbers of the local collecting association. Even those will suffer from some inflation as people do float into and out of MO collection as other jobs dry up.
An example, the number of collectors in one area I was in was officially (IIRC) 38 - but of these, two or three people hadn't been in the water for six months as they had found construction jobs that paid more reliably. When the building was finished, the collectors association expected them to come take their places back.

Such is the way things are in the Philippines. Even the official numbers in areas that have a good handle on things won't necessarily tell you the number of people that actually got wet that week. The core group might only be 6 or 12, but expand to 38 at various times. I'm not sure it is possible to get an exact figure - and if you did, what difference would it really make?

To say that 4500 MO collectors exist and are actively collecting? Overstatement, I think. Probably more like a 1000 on any given day, from a pool of 2000, possibly more, possibly less.

To also think that Food fish fishermen don't occasionally sell MO fish, or MO collectors don't also catch food fish is also wrong. The dichotomy is mostly a manufactured one here on the hobby side, IMO.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

The best bet would be to go to the villlages and get a specific number of collectors either through the local permitting process ...
Mike;
Villages come and go as well.
And knowing where all the villages are that collect tropicals....is a moving target.
For example...in Tawi Tawi there were to be created new villages and divers to add collecting pressure to the reefs where there was none...from a MAC training project.
Do you add them or not?
If they fail like the rest of the MAC villages, you hold the phone, and subtract them as they get finally abandoned.
On the other hand, with enough outside subsidy, they may ship a few boxes a week...for awhile and become part of the population of fish collectors.
How on earth do you render up the data as easily as office folks expect it to make their "work" easier?
Steve

 

[mkirda]

How on earth do you render up the data as easily as office folks expect it to make their "work" easier?
Steve

Flippant answer: Haul their butts out to the villages to see the situation for themselves. :lol:

You make your best guess based on the information available to you.
And know that it is a guess only, not a final, exact figure.

That is as accurate as it is going to get, if you want nationwide figures.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[middletonmark]

" He actually said that?
How ill-advised.
Steve
The new forum should be called the PDF.....ie. The Prima Donna Forum

Aka Marine Depot :roll:

 

[StevenPro]

I have debated responding here for the past few days, but feel an overwhelming impulse to clear the air a bit.

No one labeled as an ‘expert’ on RC left, I repeat no one, because of disagreements over husbandry or any 'my way or the highway' mentality. Anyone that believes this is simply ignorant of the facts. Anyone can search the various online forums and see that several of these experts that left have told people repeatedly that any methodology can work and they all have their pluses and minuses.

Secondly, this move is not about the money. RC paid them a very small amount, nowhere near the amount of money to be fairly compensated for the time required. When broken down per hour, they didn't even make minimum wage. Additionally, another message board offered 3.5 times the amount of money that MD offered and a second place offered to beat that high offer. Both were turned down flat. In the end, MD is paying about the same RC paid. And finally, the offer I and a few others with less notoriety were offered was adjusted at the request and charity of the other 'experts'. They gave up part of their pay so we would all receive the same, equal share.

Lastly, there are a ton of message boards on aquarium keeping. Does anyone actually believe that it was just a coincidence that the largest board by a factor of ten also employed internationally known and recognized 'experts'?

 

[dizzy]

well I just went to Dr. Ron blog http://drrons.blogspot.com/
and saw the link to MD. MD had 33 users online when I was there. So we can see how much of an impact they have. I guess.
Dr. Ron writes today 1-10-06
"Well, we got the word from the management of our new site that we can expect to go live on our new forums on Wednesday or Thursday. They want to test their servers and ensure that they are "up to the task." Hmmm... I hope so. I quess they expect us to be somewhat of a draw. Personally, I have my doubts."

PS
Good luck Steven.

 

[StevenPro]

Well, the forums are not even open yet. But, in the 12 hours since they originally let it slip that we were going there, the total number of registered members increased 5%. That seems to be a significant number to me for 12 hours without active participation or even an official announcement.