Borneman's Reefkeeping Magazine article

[Anonymous]

Maybe this industry is different, but its really the first one I have ever heard of where you actually get something you didn't order....

Huh?
Of course you get things you don't order.
Importers sure do anyway and routinely.
To be to fastidious and high-minded about it would hardly be productive as its impossible to get exactly what you actually want owing to the fact that nature doesn't provide the ultra this or exquisite that on demand and according to correct timetables.
Stocklists are often more like general templates or wish-lists.
"Hey, we didn't order those 18 orange shoulder tangs!" is hardly newsworthy.
"Hey we ordered 700 yellow tangs but this can [ container] is half empty even though we have to pay for the full thing!"
Or "HEY, I ordered 15 green hammers, 10 red scolmias, 12 red yumas and 6 red lord howensis....and all I got were the common things on the list like goniporas, lobos, sarcos and bubbles!"
In defense of this institutional bait and switch let me say that when the cherries are gone and 2,0000 items remain, someone has to take em to keep the trade alive and cash flowing.

And the more fastidious one is about it the smaller his orders and importance become to the shipper.
If you get dogged on this one, you may get a nice fill on the next.
Whiners and cherry pickers may get lesser proirity and fewer cherries.
All cherries would be nice ...right and exactly as we imagine them in size, color and vibrance.... right???
But only amatuers and members of the public have the luxury to think like that.
Its not exactly like ordering exactly what you want at Carls Jr or Wendys.
Steve

I still don't understand why all you fish stores put up with it.

So what if the wholesaler gets 200000000 million bazillion yellow tangs, you don't have to actually buy them from the wholesaler.

The whole wholesaler to lfs relationship sounds like it was forced to be a certain way back in the beginning and is in need of revamping. In these days of computer tracking it should be possible for a wholesaler to list exactly what is in stock and sell from that list.

Maybe a form of "Reform" is in order, but not in the collecting side, but on the distribution side.....

ding ding ding !


it IS being revamped-some folks just don't like the way the revamping is going :wink:

The whole tone of the relationship, at least what I am hearing, reminds me greatly of a conversation I had with the fire department in my town. They use an air raid siren to alert the fire department of a fire. Its less than 200 feet from my bedroom window. I offered to fund raise to get all the fire department beepers, and this is what they had to say.

We have been doing it this way for 30 years and we will do it this way for the next 30.

You will be more grateful to the fire department when your house burns down.

8O

They were just afraid of change I think.

After the air raid siren broke permanetly, for some reason it wasn't that hard for them to get to fires with beepers.


People are always afraid of change.....

 

[clarionreef]

Some...
have suggested that collectors only catch to order what the consumer wants.
He orders from the retailer who
relays it to the wholesaler and who then
relays it to the exporter who
relays it to the distributor who
relays it to the divers. whew...!
Thats so funny and I'll bet hardly anyone knows why .
Be careful w/ your response. This is an IQ test.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

But

If the retailer stopped buying junk he didn't want, it would end up with the diver not collecting things they couldn't sell

Now wouldn't it?

Be careful, I just asked you the same dang question :wink:

 

[danieldm]

Rich-

I apologize if anything I posted was questionable. But when confronted with a frog I have a hard time calling it otherwise.

"They actually box and ship direct to the hobbyists in the name of certain select companies."
In a thread over on RC, Dr. Foster of Dr's Foster's & Smith fame actually admitted that Oceans to Oceans drop-ships for them. He also mentioned that they were a "division" of a larger wholesale outfit. Seems funny to me that they did the separation, and I can't help but wonder if it was to distance themselves from the DR's F&S relationship. A year or two ago someone within the industry told me that the major supplier/drop-shipper for Dr's F&S was Quality Marine. Now with Dr. Foster's admission I got curious and did some digging...both Oceans to Oceans and Quality are located at 5420 W 104th. I believe this is what they call Circumstantial Evidence, but it looks credible to me.

I feel compelled to respond to a claim made by Eric of SDC in the KICKING OUT CHERRY PICKERS thread. I thought that my response was more in line with this thread than the other. Eric stated;

I agree with Steve and it's been a company policy of ours for many years that we don't allow cherry picking by either customers nor sales reps. Everyone has to get a fair shake at the cherry's and nobody gets more than there share.
It's very difficult to police and it doesn't always work out perfectly, but you can say no to customers or jobbers that can't buy product in a fair manner.
You can train your sales team to spread "the love" to the majority of their customers and never give one customer more than "their share".
It's a goal that needs to be enforced daily and is well known by all staff.
It's true what Steve says...those who try to get away with the cherry picking are really just showing that they have a lot of nerve trying to get away with it. I have put many a fish back into the system after already collected by customers. It's hard to confront certain people.....but it happens and we have to.

I was directly involved with a small startup Internet company and we did most of our business with SDC, unless they didn't have what we needed and then we looked elsewhere. We were basically doing the same thing as MDL. Now maybe it was because one of our partners was an industry insider, but we routinely cherry picked at SDC, and we also never came close to their purchase minimums. Now in a week we would go above their minimum, but on a daily basis we usually didn't even come close. I know for a fact that Eric knew what we were doing because one of the times I was in there I was introduced to Eric, and we spoke briefly about our little Internet project. We were even allowed in there off hours to take pictures to use as marketing on our web site. Maybe SDC has changed in their practices since I was dealing with them, but when Eric says "it's been a company policy of ours for many years that we don't allow cherry picking by either customers....", I can say that as recently as Spring/Summer of 2004 we were in there doing exactly what he says hasn't been allowed for many years. I also saw local fish stores in there pulling their own stock, as well as a jobber or two that I was introduced to. I know Eric is going to respond to this, and probably deny what I say. I was compelled to respond due to the strength of his statement. This was not meant as a jab at SDC. Hopefully this won't turn into a debate between Eric and I...my two CD's full of pictures within their facility and score of SDC invoices are hard to deny.

We also dealt with several other of the large wholesalers, and again were cherry picking and not meeting order minimums. I won't mention which ones, unless they chose to participate in this discussion. As with SDC, maybe this was being allowed because we had an industry insider in the mix. But I did see other people, such as from MDL at these other companies filling their daily orders.

Bottom line is that A LOT of the wholesale outfits in LA are allowing this sort of behavior and it is directly detrimental to their B&M customer base. I know this is wild/wishful thinking. Maybe what the B&M customers should do is band together and for a one or two week period not order from any wholesale company. This sort of protest will most likely never happen, but it would send a clear message, and also show the industry how much they rely on the B&M customers.

 

[danieldm]

Since I have received three PM's regarding my last post, I would like to make it absolutely clear that that's the way it was when we were in there back in Spring/Summer 2004. I have nothing to say in regards to how Eric and SDC operates today.

The only reason I decided to post was due to how strong Eric's claims were in the other thread, and the fact that he backed it up by stating "for many years".

 

[clarionreef]

If the retailer stopped buying junk he didn't want, it would end up with the diver not collecting things they couldn't sell

Junk....?
You mean the common stuff that makes the whole trade work and provides the economy of scale that allows anything to come thru?
You mean the pounds of pie that ounces of cherries set up on?

The mass market is a speculative one and driven by supply on hand season to season....and it is huge.
It is not driven by a fastidious elite that feels somehow entitled to claim only the cream for itself.
These guys have no idea how it works....and if a catch to order scheme were actually enforced, the trade would collapse.
Catching only the 4 % of the cherries that the prima donnas want is impossible and would put all the divers out of business right away.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

If the retailer stopped buying junk he didn't want, it would end up with the diver not collecting things they couldn't sell

Junk....?
You mean the common stuff that makes the whole trade work and provides the economy of scale that allows anything to come thru?
You mean the pounds of pie that ounces of cherries set up on?

The mass market is a speculative one and driven by supply on hand season to season....and it is huge.
It is not driven by a fastidious elite that feels somehow entitled to claim only the cream for itself.
These guys have no idea how it works....and if a catch to order scheme were actually enforced, the trade would collapse.
Catching only the 4 % of the cherries that the prima donnas want is impossible and would put all the divers out of business right away.
Steve

by junk I mean the stuff that everybody is complaining about getting instead of the "cherries"

I myself have absolutely no idea what a "cherry" is because my tank has 2 corals in it. yellow polyps and a ton of finger leather...........

 

[dizzy]

"They actually box and ship direct to the hobbyists in the name of certain select companies."
In a thread over on RC, Dr. Foster of Dr's Foster's & Smith fame actually admitted that Oceans to Oceans drop-ships for them. He also mentioned that they were a "division" of a larger wholesale outfit. Seems funny to me that they did the separation, and I can't help but wonder if it was to distance themselves from the DR's F&S relationship. A year or two ago someone within the industry told me that the major supplier/drop-shipper for Dr's F&S was Quality Marine. Now with Dr. Foster's admission I got curious and did some digging...both Oceans to Oceans and Quality are located at 5420 W 104th.

Marc how about providing a link to that important thread.
Mitch

 

[danieldm]

Mitch-

The first link is the actual thread where Dr. Foster discusses his operation, and the second link is a continuation of the discussion after the first thread was locked.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=750651

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=751910

 

[dizzy]

Wow Marc the honesty of Race Foster is truly impressive. Kevin Kohen is also a really nice guy. They do have a class operation. I guess vitz is right about the local fish stores being dinosaurs. Our purpose only seems to be to create new business to turn over to them. Just how long people will want to continue to work the 80-weeks only to ultimately surrender the customers over to etailers is the big question. I'm personally begining to wonder if it is worth it anymore. Our freshwater customers are the most loyal, which is probably due to the lower purchase prices.
Mitch

 

[danieldm]

Mitch-

I was also surprised how forthright Race Foster was. It's one thing to say what you are doing, but it's another to "out" another company. After his admission, and my remembering what I was told, I just ran a check and found that both companies are located at 5420 W 104th.

 

[dizzy]

Marc,
Have you already read this old thread? http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

A lot of the names got edited out, but most industry insiders know who the wholesaler in question is. They are a quality outfit with great livestock, but they don't like to talk about this issue IME.
Mitch
PS
Race also said they were using more than just one wholesaler.

 

[clarionreef]

Thanks for the public service Daniel.
Another conspiracy theory confirmed to be fact.
It looks to me that Mitch's eco-FICO score just keeps going up.
Steve
PS. The dialogue suggested to me that marine livestock peddling is now evolving into a thing resembling E-bay and Walmart....
Don't worry mItch, the public will always support the dealers for an hour of free advice on disease control and an ounce of brine shrimp.
Steve

 

[danieldm]

Mitch, no I have not read that thread. I'm on my way out to go service some tanks, but I'll read it when I get back.

Marc

 

[aquaticvet1]

Ocean 2 Ocean is where some of the shipping staff works . For livestock we use a total of seven wholesalers and distributors , four around the L.A. area .
Thank you for the civil approach . I will not post again on this topic , just wanted to clarify .
Race Foster

 

[clarionreef]

They wrote;
" As you know we take all reasonable precautions to provide the best quality fish in the industry, including our principle supplier who is a MAC certified holding facility."

Did MAC let you down and didn't deliver as they promised the world they would.
Is this why 7 wholesalers have to be used now?
... Is the MAC thing being dropped now as a foundation to base a ready-made environmental policy on?
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,

Do you really think that is the way to get someone to answer your questions?

 

[dizzy]

Righty is it ok to guess who we think the four LA wholesalers are? I think I know. I think they might all be white boys.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
As a serious part of a sales culture, they are used to illuminating the benefits and comparative advantages of dealing in their products.
As a big player, they are used to taking the blood of others...and surely cannot be so delicate when challenged themselves.
They should simply see this as an opportunity to clarify things, enhance their environmental credibilty and help us understand how dealing with everyone on 104th St has still allowed them to have the highest , most ethical, moral fish supply available.
Its just a few questions.
Steve
PS.
I edited the post

 

[Anonymous]

Mitch,
I have no idea. Do you think it will further the discussion?

Steve,

It appears its a few loaded questions, and that, by some of your word choices, you have already made the decision that Race is an enemy. It just doesn't seem like a good way to engender discussion to me - too confrontational.

Race,

:welcome: