Borneman's Reefkeeping Magazine article

[Kalkbreath]

Its about the health of the industry, the more salesmen (LFS ) working the nation ........the more exposure the hobby gets to the bulk of the public.
Many fish stores are simply choosing to give up. Like in my Jacksonville Florida example or here in Atlanta. The fewer brick and mortar stores, the fewer hobbyists within the area where the LFS were Located. Eighty percent of my customers come from another store. Meaning that the hobbyist was introduced to the hobby by one of my competing stores (Even Pets Mart does its part in creating new hobbyists for me and My store).Its a group effort. Because there are so many fish stores in Atlanta, we the stores have an incredible ability to generate new hobbyists. Something that Jacksonville has lost.
If enough stores pull out of smaller markets, then the hobby over all will take a hit. Less industry volume means less funding for Coral farms and Net training. You gotta sell a lot of ten dollar corals to keep a coral farm open.( Bookfish can attest to this)
Eric likes to think the hobby is growing so he can push his agenda.
I wish the hobby WAS growing so I could push my farmed products.

:wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I still don't see what is dirty about capitalism.

It seems like you are promoting a form or communism where every fish store gets served with the exact same amount of awesome verses plain corals and fish.

That's is so far from realistic as to be laughable.

Here are a couple of rules in this world, in case you never heard them before....


1. First come first served
2. The early bird gets the worm


Ever wonder why they are popular sayings? Cause they are true!


Every Store has the divine right to go out and cherrypick, and just because most of them don't bother to figure out a way to get the good stuff doesn't mean you should lamblast the ones that do....

knuck, look at this way..........
You ask your lfs to get so and so for you but they can't get it because Vitz beat you to it. Not just once but week after week and month after month. Who are you going to get mad at?

 

[Anonymous]

jealousy seems to be the actual issue here, no ? :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

We learned something new this morning?

1. First come first served
2. The early bird gets the worm

Ever wonder why they are popular sayings? Cause they are true .
Where is it true? At walmart?

How silly.
Commerce in wildlife is different then commerce in manufactured goods.

Quotas are also as American as apple pie and are put on exporters and importers all the time. Rarer stuff tends to get more restriction.....
The next time a US Fish and Wildlife agent siezes a coral that exceeds the restricted quota and breaks the law...I want to send them Knucks lecture on capitalism and restraint of trade.
Asst mushrooms and Goniporas....all you want [ ugh!]
Ultra blastomussas....?
Ever so slightly different. Or do you not learn that when pecking away on the altar of ebay w/ credit card in hand?
Steve
Portioning out items restricted by law and nature in a fair pattern of distribution to serve the maximum amount of customers...especially out of town ones...is very capitalistic as well.
Letting too many service guys have it all because they live nearby is hardly fair to the good customers in the MidWest or a good business plan.
However....
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

jealousy seems to be the actual issue here, no ? :wink:

LOL ok man, whatever you say. The only beef anyone has is pure jealousy. :roll: Tough to understand your mumbling with that foot in your mouth though. Or was that crow?

 

[Anonymous]

I still don't see what is dirty about capitalism.

It seems like you are promoting a form or communism where every fish store gets served with the exact same amount of awesome verses plain corals and fish.

That's is so far from realistic as to be laughable.

Here are a couple of rules in this world, in case you never heard them before....


1. First come first served
2. The early bird gets the worm


Ever wonder why they are popular sayings? Cause they are true!


Every Store has the divine right to go out and cherrypick, and just because most of them don't bother to figure out a way to get the good stuff doesn't mean you should lamblast the ones that do....

knuck, look at this way..........
You ask your lfs to get so and so for you but they can't get it because Vitz beat you to it. Not just once but week after week and month after month. Who are you going to get mad at?

Normally if I can't find something at my lfs and I really want it I go online and buy it.....

 

[clarionreef]

Hey Burger King,
If you can't find something...develop a better relationship with your local, favorite retailer.

I know that as a wholesaler, I generally would try to get anything for a real customer. In fact kissing their butt is a key to sales.
Oh yes...the flip side of kicking butt is ....kisssssiiiing it.
No pride here at all.
Weeding out the jackals promotes greater service and fidelity to the actual customers . Many retailers appreciate this policy.
Real retailers service all levels in the trade and not just the special people. They keep the economy of scale up, allow the 500 kg and 1,000 kg frieght breaks and enable the ride along of the really cool stuff that we all want to see.
I mean, comon...picking out the brightest colors in a row of coral is a talent children have.

Its a capitalist system remember?
But, if you're "born to run...and loyal to none"...then your retailer [and his supplier ] may understandably not work so hard for you.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Burger King,
If you can't find something...develop a better relationship with your local, favorite retailer.

I know that as a wholesaler, I generally would try to get anything for a real customer. In fact kissing their butt is a key to sales.
Oh yes...the flip side of kicking butt is ....kisssssiiiing it.
No pride here at all.
Weeding out the jackals promotes greater service and fidelity to the actual customers . Many retailers appreciate this policy.
Real retailers service all levels in the trade and not just the special people. They keep the economy of scale up, allow the 500 kg and 1,000 kg frieght breaks and enable the ride along of the really cool stuff that we all want to see.
I mean, comon...picking out the brightest colors in a row of coral is a talent children have.

Its a capitalist system remember?
But, if you're "born to run...and loyal to none"...then your retailer [and his supplier ] may understandably not work so hard for you.

Yeah

Good plan when my favorite one is over an hour drive each way, and most of their help sucks....

I think I like my plan just fine....

 

[Anonymous]

I still don't see what is dirty about capitalism.

It seems like you are promoting a form or communism where every fish store gets served with the exact same amount of awesome verses plain corals and fish.

That's is so far from realistic as to be laughable.

Here are a couple of rules in this world, in case you never heard them before....


1. First come first served
2. The early bird gets the worm


Ever wonder why they are popular sayings? Cause they are true!


Every Store has the divine right to go out and cherrypick, and just because most of them don't bother to figure out a way to get the good stuff doesn't mean you should lamblast the ones that do....

knuck, look at this way..........
You ask your lfs to get so and so for you but they can't get it because Vitz beat you to it. Not just once but week after week and month after month. Who are you going to get mad at?

Normally if I can't find something at my lfs and I really want it I go online and buy it.....

Your local guy can't get it because the online guys get first choice. PERIOD. Just for kicks, ask your local guy/s what they ordered as compared to what came in. My guy always askes for nice colored zoas when they're on the list and NEVER gets them, not once.

I don't like to order my livestock on line, want to know why? I can't see it! No telling what I'll get if I did. A friend recently ordered via the net...... one dead fish arrived and the other was infested with ich. She got the pleasure of freezing and mailing them back for a credit (that didn't include shipping) Big whoop. She'd of been better off letting the local guy do it for her. Oh I forgot, he can't get those in either. :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Mr local guy could get first choice if he really wanted to, the same way the online guys do.

They pay someone to go and get the stuff for them

 

[JennM]

Mr local guy could get first choice if he really wanted to, the same way the online guys do.

They pay someone to go and get the stuff for them

Right - and add one more cost to the customer that they don't want to pay because they can get it "cheaper" online.

Businesses that don't maintain their own holding facilities don't have nearly the overhead that those of us who maintain a retail space have.

Yet more and more hobbyists want PhD level service at bargain-basement prices...

Retail space is more expensive than warehouse space. Holding systems need water and electricity to be maintained. More water, salt, pumps, parts, somebody to scrub algae and do water changes, more water, more salt....

Then every time we turn around some armchair quarterback hobbyist is on one of these boards accusing LFS of bending them over and not buying them dinner first, simply because "eBay Cherry Pickers-R-Us" can walk into a wholesaler and buy one or two, pack and ship 'em without any of the overhead, for a fraction of the price.

Meanwhile, as was stated above, I, the retailer who spends hundreds or more with each wholesaler I deal with, at a time, can't get blue zoanthids or a nice green torch half the time, because the cherry pickers have picked up all the good stuff.

What would happen to the etail businesses if not for the LFS to buy up all the brown stuff? Wholesalers would be overrun with brown stuff and nobody'd be buying it if not for us good ole mom and pops.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Jenn,
We just had a guy in here who regarded a load of some 100 corals that just came in and commented;
"I don't want to tell you your business but if I were you guys I'd order only the prettier ones rather then the brown ones..." :roll:
Goodness me. What does that tell you right there! These guys know nothing of anything beyond themselves.
He actually though that we could behave as he does with our exporters and that it was that simple.

The ability to discern brown from blue...and 20 dollars from 30 is about the only talent I can detect. :?
Steve

 

[JennM]

Well Steve, it's all relative... perhaps we as an industry need to do some "reverse psychology"... People only want the "rare and unusual"... how many brown corals do you see on etailers' websites? None, of course... so perhaps we need to spin it right

"Rare brown corals" :lol: Get 'em while they're hot!

I've got plenty of brown corals, and honestly they sell quite well to newer hobbyists who don't want to risk a mortgage payment on something terribly expensive. There's some pretty nice pieces among the "plain"... colour isn't everything - shape, size, overall health... something a bit less flashy but will thrive for years in the average customer's tank is good value, IMO...

Sad that the individual to whom you refer just doesn't understand how it works - for every "outstanding" coral there are 100 plain ones... that's just how it is.

Besides, if *all* that was available was "cherry"... then they wouldn't be cherries would they?

It's all relative.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

I still don't see what is dirty about capitalism.

It seems like you are promoting a form or communism where every fish store gets served with the exact same amount of awesome verses plain corals and fish.

That's is so far from realistic as to be laughable.

Wow,
What are these knuckheads going to do when we switch over to a sustainable, certified fish and coral supply? The rare stuff will be the first thing to disappear from the trade. :roll:

 

[JennM]

Thing is, Mitch, the smuggled stuff will always be there... it's been pointed out here and in another thread, some of the more rare or unusual stuff is being brought in illegally. There's nothing to suggest that this will stop even if the rules change - the smugglers don't play by the rules to begin with.

If anything, the prices of those contraband creatures may rise - and line the pockets more of those who bring them in. Not worth the risk, IMO but it will be for somebody - we've already seen that.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

Jenn,
Surely you're not suggesting MD is going to be willing to do anything illegal to maintain their advantage over the brick and mortars? 8O Are you?

 

[JennM]

No not at all. My statement was a generalization.

It was simply pointed out in this thread and others that some of the "cherry" stuff is imported illegally. Specifically there is a thread here about a certain specie of jawfish and the lack of legal means to collect them -- however one wholesaler headlined them in their stock list this week (not somebody I buy from, but I get lots of stock lists from lots of vendors each week.) Somebody else pointed out in that same thread that they've seen many etailers list that specie quite regularly. If no legal permits have been issued where they are found, then obviously something "fishy" is going on (pardon the pun). Nobody named names -- but it's been going on for a while and that's just one specific example of such.

I've seen lots of questionable stuff on stock lists over the years, as I'm sure many others have too. I'm sure in many instances it's a "don't ask, don't tell" situation... similar to the Clarion debacle... people were willing to buy them - I'm sure not a lot of questions were asked about their origins.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

We learned something new this morning?

1. First come first served
2. The early bird gets the worm

Ever wonder why they are popular sayings? Cause they are true .
Where is it true? At walmart?

How silly.
Commerce in wildlife is different then commerce in manufactured goods. Quotas are also as American as apple pie and are put on exporters and importers all the time. Rarer stuff tends to get more restriction.....
The next time a US Fish and Wildlife agent siezes a coral that exceeds the restricted quota and breaks the law...I want to send them Knucks lecture on capitalism and restraint of trade.
Asst mushrooms and Goniporas....all you want [ ugh!]
Ultra blastomussas....?
Ever so slightly different. Or do you not learn that when pecking away on the altar of ebay w/ credit card in hand?
Steve
Portioning out items restricted by law and nature in a fair pattern of distribution to serve the maximum amount of customers...especially out of town ones...is very capitalistic as well.
Letting too many service guys have it all because they live nearby is hardly fair to the good customers in the MidWest or a good business plan.
However....
Steve

how is the commerce at the level of the wholesale/retail/enduser any different than any other industry? everything i've experienced indicates it's pretty much the same:

money talks, bs walks :wink:

 

[dizzy]

We could start a "Bust a dirty etailer" hotline to report illegal trade when it is noticed. Perhaps offer a small reward. I don't see it as being all that hard to shutdown, if online hobbyists are truly the evironmentalists they claim to be.

 

[Anonymous]

We could start a "Bust a dirty etailer" hotline to report illegal trade when it is noticed. Perhaps offer a small reward. I don't see it as being all that hard to shutdown, if online hobbyists are truly the evironmentalists they claim to be.

don't forget that 'turnabout is fair play' ... especially if b&m's are truly the environmentalists and hobbyist champions they claim to be


on with the polarizing!! :twisted: