Borneman's Reefkeeping Magazine article

[danieldm]

Steve-

I understand that you are passionate about what many of us refer to "as a hobby", but that it is much more than a hobby to you. It's been your lifeblood and passion for many years, and possibly more years than some of the posters here have been alive.

I think in the RC thread, as well as his single posting here, that Race Foster was much more forthright and gracious in his manner & communication than we have seen out of anyone else in the internet/mail order end of the industry. I think that alone demands at least a gentler more positive approach in order to open a dialogue than you displayed here.

I have the utmost respect for you, your passion, and the reform that you so desire within this industry. Negative, accusatory communication directed at Race Foster will either result in his negative, defensive response, or as I suspect he simply won't visit us again. If we want positve, constructive dialoge with him, then we must start ourselves with positive, constructive dialogue.

Marc

 

[clarionreef]

Prior to my post, he wrote;

Thank you for the civil approach . I will not post again on this topic , just wanted to clarify ...

No civil dialogue was ever in the offing and was pre-emted by that statement....
I will not post again on this topic , just wanted to clarify .
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

If I had a dime for every time someone said this was their last post and then posted again I would have enough money to set up aquaculture facilities in every SP nation. And pay for my kitchen remodel.
Being cordial gets them to actually come back more often than being confrontational - not to mention having the side effect of encouraging lurkers to feel the desire to post.

IMO, this forum could be so great, if only people could be cordial for more than 10 posts.

 

[dizzy]

I going to bring this one quote over from the RC thread.

"Hi Marc ,
I appreciate your comments . There are of course many wholesalers that solicit my business and several have similar setups with my competition . In fact most of the better ones regularly attempt to lure me from O. to O. ----, that is no secret . As you may know my tracks are all over West 104 th. street and L.A. I also stated that I do not limit my purchases to any one vendor and in fact currently use several in an attempt to get a quality fish and coral supply. If O.to O. would not ship for me , I have other wholesalers in line or I will purchase and run my own facility, that is how commited I am to the industry.Personally , I will go wherever the best fish are and so should every mom and pop shop out there .
You know Marc , on this very board I have been called the fish mafia , the fish cartel , the fish dragon and more . Perhaps I am all of that , but I prefer to be just Race --- and Race will get the quality fish . That is not arrogance but rather confidence."

I think that is definitely where we are headed. I think it would be best if F&S did purchase their own facility. I just don't see how a brick and mortar will have much of a chance competing for the cream of the crop against a customer with that type of purchasing power. There was a rumor about F&S buying the mother company behind Ocean to Ocean a couple of years ago. Perhaps they soon will.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Would that be QM or parent Dolphin?
This statment should be an awakening call for importers!
Do you all really want guys like this running the industry and setting your bottom line? Its your choice at this point, soon you might be working for them!

The fifty-thousand a month in marine life F&S purchases in its symbiotic relation ship with this importer, is a tiny sum compared to what the other 5000+ nation wide brick and mortars stores purchase as a group.
Even from this wholesaler. (parent of O to O)

Without the national network of brick and mortar stores creating hobbyists, F&S would have no customers to sell to.
the average joe public learns who F& S are only after a retail store turns Joe into a hobbyist.

As I see it , there are only two scenarios coming down the road for the industry.
One,
F & S puts all the Brick and Mortars out of business and a few years later finds that with no new hobbyists being generated now that the cumulative advertizing power of 5,000 brick and mortar stores is gone.................. the number of hobbyists nation wide plummets and every body falls on their swords.

Or Two,
the wholesalers which allow this unholy alliance with mail order fish stores wake up and over time learn to understand that the future of this hobby is directly linked to generating new hobbyists and that without a retail B & M network spreading the fishy word throughout the shopping centers and business districts of America there will be no hobbyists other then the occational tourists getting lost at the Airport and steping into a fish wharehouse on 104th street for directions to the Kiss and Go at LAX.........

 

[Anonymous]

Or the big companies can run chain b&m's.

 

[Anonymous]

or....(and here's the kicker) b&m's will get wise and branch out to internet based ordering, sales, etc., in addition to being 'purely' b&m.

i know of at least one well respected and long established place in philly that takes orders for live and drygoods online-they do far greater biz than if they had remained strictly 'analog'

 

[Anonymous]

Yep. I know of several LFS that are doing the same thing.

 

[dizzy]

About the only way brick and mortar can compete (etailing) with the LA based etailer/cherry pickers is to transship in and bypass the LA wholesalers. You can't pay the same price as the LA etailers for the fish, then add feight costs, then add the cost of unpacking and repacking, add in the losses you incur and be very competitive. Perhaps someone will come up with a revolutionary way to pack the fish so the LA wholesalers can indeed be bypassed. I think transhippping works better for retailers in certain large cities. That certainly doesn't mean it is a good plan for everyone.
Mitch

PS
Even if you could land the fish and corals cheaply enough it would be hard to compete on the variety they can get by going wholesaler to wholesaler.

 

[Kalkbreath]

If a B&M in PA sells online to Hobbyists in Jacksonville Florida , this still prevents a healthy market in Jacksonville from re-establishing.
Do we really think an onine store in PA can generate hobbyists in Florida as well as a few local fish stores would?
Its about new hobbyists , thats really all that matters.

 

[mkirda]

Perhaps someone will come up with a revolutionary way to pack the fish so the LA wholesalers can indeed be bypassed. {snip}

PS
Even if you could land the fish and corals cheaply enough it would be hard to compete on the variety they can get by going wholesaler to wholesaler.

This is being worked on, that much I know.

And you are very correct here as well. You must have a really great relationship with your exporter to get the cherries coming in there too.

The fish we tend to prize are fairly rare, hence the price.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Yep. I know of several LFS that are doing the same thing.

...as is my new shop. I have holding tanks in my house, even, and am working on the website right now. We'll have about 80 total tanks with livestock, and have both b&m as well as online ordering for corals & drygoods, whether to ship out or pick up.

Peace,

Chip

 

[dizzy]

Well if you think the unabated trade in rare and possibly threatened species is going to continue like it is now I would suggest thinking again.
While it may be fairly easy to get rare corals right now, that may be changing in the near future. Dr. Andy Bruckner and Dr. Barabara Best of NOAA are carefully watching the situation. Legislation that could rain on your parade is currently before congress. Rare species need to be proven sustainable and that may be a tall order if they are truly rare. Reef Check is not exactly giving the green flag for the collecting of rare stuff to continue. (See other thread) You need to realize things are going to be changing in this industry and make your plans carefully with that in mind. Being optimistic is good, but being aware of the coming changes is critical in avoiding financial disaster. I personally think sustainability is long overdue.
Mitch

 

[spawner]

Mitch,

Atlantic species of Acropora are now, well I think it is offical, listed as threatened species.

Rare is an interesting term, Lysmata grabhami is rare in the hobby, but only because they are only common below 150ft of water in Florida.

 

[dizzy]

Andy I think we are going to see the burden of proof changing from the government having to prove something is endangered to the industry having to prove that it is not, before the trade in these species can continue. If you read Coralmania you will see it is a big concern for Eric B and also NOAA, that certain rare species may be discovered and overcollected before anyone even realized how rare they were. Certainly you are right that there are many species that are not necessarily rare in nature, that are not commonly found in the hobby today. I guess part of the problem is that by the time they are proven to be abundant they lose some of their appeal. People want rare stuff. Look at all the banner ads on rdo and rc for an example. Other than F$S and MD, these guys are not touting a great selection of bread and butter items. If you take away the rare stuff, 99% of the etailers would drop livestock in a New York minute. At some point if a certain amount of rare stuff does continue to flow, I look for the collecting communities to find ways to market this high value stuff themselves. It's kind of like the Indians running their own casinos. At some point in time they wise up and cut out the greedy white boys in the middle. That time might be a little closer than most of you realize. :wink: Just ask Mikey K.

 

[Anonymous]

Thats whats happening with mimic/zebra octopuses and flamboyant cuttlefish. Science things they are not all that common, and it seems that the numbers are going down in the wild, while at the same time more people want them - even though we know very little about them. On TONMO.com (the octopus and news magazine online) people are very clear about telling local shops to NOT order them. I sometimes get calls from local wholesalers when a 'rare' ceph like that come in and I usually figure a way for them to get it to UC for study. At the same time, we still see posts by people who have bought these animals and have no idea how to care for them.

Kinda OT.

 

[Anonymous]

Great thread. ::munches popcorn:: Hi Rich, JT, Vitz, Wayne, Jenn. ::munches popcorn::

Only thing I miss about living in Los Angeles. I can't cherry pick my own corals anymore

 

[Anonymous]

IT LIVES!

 

[Anonymous]

Great thread. ::munches popcorn:: Hi Rich, JT, Vitz, Wayne, Jenn. ::munches popcorn::

Only thing I miss about living in Los Angeles. I can't cherry pick my own corals anymore

well it's about time! how the hell are ya?

 

[Anonymous]

Not bad

But there I was sitting at my desk at work yesterday when I suddenly felt a great disturbance in the force.... it was as if 100,000 registered RC users all suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced, probably by a thread deletion. So naturally I just assumed that the best way to find out what was going on was to look for the longest current thread in the industry forum 8)

Heh. On a more serious note, I'm about to order the new tank. I'll start a thread up topside sometime later today.