Study of Mortality
- Thread starter sdcfish
- Start date
Good point Nanocat, I always think of our students to get them some experence. Anyway they would need to be stationed near by the facilities or in them so they could be their at all times when shipments arrived. I have a feeling that the critics will claim that we fudged the data somehow when/if the results turn up less then 5% DOA, so we must take very precaution to set up any observations to be strict and follow a certain guidelines. Almost like a fishery observer on a fishing boat.
clarionreef
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Im sure there is some cyanide fishing taking place there as well.Vili_Shark":28l6o655 said:
But you need to ask yourself how you came to the conclusion that poison fishing in Indonesia is wide spread?
Remember that back in 1998 and 1999 people were claiming that the Philippines was rampant with MO cyanide collection .....yet spot random testing by the CDT found only about ten percent of the pet fish to have cyanide present?
Was it correct to call cyanide fishing rampant in PI when only 8 percent of the fish were found to have cyanide?(1998)
Kalk wrote:
"Im sure there is some cyanide fishing taking place there as well."
I wouldnt call it "some",talking with many exporters from there plus talking with many importers from there, you can say that it's not just "some".
I can say that after talking with a couple of big impoters in Hong Kong we were saying that certain species are probably caught ONLY with cyanide.
One of the biggest exporters in Indonesia who was very honest told me once and I quote him " I dont really know what my divers are really doing there, im doing my best by supplying them new nets"
You cant say anything about cyanide without mentioning Indonesia.
"Im sure there is some cyanide fishing taking place there as well."
I wouldnt call it "some",talking with many exporters from there plus talking with many importers from there, you can say that it's not just "some".
I can say that after talking with a couple of big impoters in Hong Kong we were saying that certain species are probably caught ONLY with cyanide.
One of the biggest exporters in Indonesia who was very honest told me once and I quote him " I dont really know what my divers are really doing there, im doing my best by supplying them new nets"
You cant say anything about cyanide without mentioning Indonesia.
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Kalk,
The tests are not the proof of the amount of cyanide used daily in Bali / Indo.
The testimony of the folks there in the front lines is more important and as always awaits a test to catch up to the truth already well known.
Waiting for a test before acting conclusively condemns reefs of coral to death as years pass by.
There is a great stress and tension in Bali now as the certified exporters pressure MAC for a fish or two to whitewash their operations.
To cover and whitewash a thousand fish, all they need is a dozen or so common species and they'll spin it into great achievement.
The problem is ...as in the Philippine to come up with the fish.
Meanwhile, the M.O. conference saw Ruwindrijarto and Arsonetri of the Les Village netcaught co-operative present their work and it was clearly the main event in the reform drama.
Les has led the way on their own and without much foreign help.
They have converted a few hundred cyanide fishers and have stuck with net catching only for 5 years now. they have an uncompromising policy of not allowing any cyanide fish or fisherman into their ranks.
Indonesia/Bali is in fact flooded with a tradition of cyanide fishing and is now the cyanide fishing center of the world....and dirtier then the Philippines.
Everyones favorite exporters from Bali carry cyanide fish routinely and yet have hardly cared as they get nice corals from the same outfits.
When reefers get the small corals they love they tend to forget about coral killing poisons that catch the fish.
When they revealed as a matter of fact that they were the only 100% netcaught operation in Bali there were murmurs in the crowd.
They have nets provided by AMDA and EASi of the Philippines and they have had training to do the job. They are now moving forward into marketing their fish.
The director of Les...Ruwi also said that they were clearly and steadfastly a non MAC enterprise.
They are looking for buyers of their all netcaught product and have had a hard time doing so as no wholesalers have been interested except for Aquatic Specialties in the SF Bay area.
Steve
The tests are not the proof of the amount of cyanide used daily in Bali / Indo.
The testimony of the folks there in the front lines is more important and as always awaits a test to catch up to the truth already well known.
Waiting for a test before acting conclusively condemns reefs of coral to death as years pass by.
There is a great stress and tension in Bali now as the certified exporters pressure MAC for a fish or two to whitewash their operations.
To cover and whitewash a thousand fish, all they need is a dozen or so common species and they'll spin it into great achievement.
The problem is ...as in the Philippine to come up with the fish.
Meanwhile, the M.O. conference saw Ruwindrijarto and Arsonetri of the Les Village netcaught co-operative present their work and it was clearly the main event in the reform drama.
Les has led the way on their own and without much foreign help.
They have converted a few hundred cyanide fishers and have stuck with net catching only for 5 years now. they have an uncompromising policy of not allowing any cyanide fish or fisherman into their ranks.
Indonesia/Bali is in fact flooded with a tradition of cyanide fishing and is now the cyanide fishing center of the world....and dirtier then the Philippines.
Everyones favorite exporters from Bali carry cyanide fish routinely and yet have hardly cared as they get nice corals from the same outfits.
When reefers get the small corals they love they tend to forget about coral killing poisons that catch the fish.
When they revealed as a matter of fact that they were the only 100% netcaught operation in Bali there were murmurs in the crowd.
They have nets provided by AMDA and EASi of the Philippines and they have had training to do the job. They are now moving forward into marketing their fish.
The director of Les...Ruwi also said that they were clearly and steadfastly a non MAC enterprise.
They are looking for buyers of their all netcaught product and have had a hard time doing so as no wholesalers have been interested except for Aquatic Specialties in the SF Bay area.
Steve
"Vili_Shark wrote:
Kalk wrote "Kalkulas strikes again..... "
"In your last post you just forgot to mention the cyanide capital of the world, Indonesia, as a source of cyanide caught fish.
Im sure there is some cyanide fishing taking place there as well.
But you need to ask yourself how you came to the conclusion that poison fishing in Indonesia is wide spread?
Remember that back in 1998 and 1999 people were claiming that the Philippines was rampant with MO cyanide collection .....yet spot random testing by the CDT found only about ten percent of the pet fish to have cyanide present?
Was it correct to call cyanide fishing rampant in PI when only 8 percent of the fish were found to have cyanide?(1998)"
REPLY-Kalk, Again you seem to be selecting your data. The overall average cyanide present based on the CDT from 1996 to 2000 for marine aquarium fishes (MAF) was 25%. The overall average for food fishes was 43%. The percent of MAF found to have cyanide present in 2000 was 29%. Yes, cyanide use declined from 1996 to 1999, but it increased in 2000 and is presumably high now.
So, where did you get the 10% (it is not in any of my published papers based on the testing conducting for BFAR by the IMA)?
PS-It declined from 43% in 1996 to 8% in 1999 (not 8% in 1998).
Peter Rubec
Kalk wrote "Kalkulas strikes again..... "
"In your last post you just forgot to mention the cyanide capital of the world, Indonesia, as a source of cyanide caught fish.
Im sure there is some cyanide fishing taking place there as well.
But you need to ask yourself how you came to the conclusion that poison fishing in Indonesia is wide spread?
Remember that back in 1998 and 1999 people were claiming that the Philippines was rampant with MO cyanide collection .....yet spot random testing by the CDT found only about ten percent of the pet fish to have cyanide present?
Was it correct to call cyanide fishing rampant in PI when only 8 percent of the fish were found to have cyanide?(1998)"
REPLY-Kalk, Again you seem to be selecting your data. The overall average cyanide present based on the CDT from 1996 to 2000 for marine aquarium fishes (MAF) was 25%. The overall average for food fishes was 43%. The percent of MAF found to have cyanide present in 2000 was 29%. Yes, cyanide use declined from 1996 to 1999, but it increased in 2000 and is presumably high now.
So, where did you get the 10% (it is not in any of my published papers based on the testing conducting for BFAR by the IMA)?
PS-It declined from 43% in 1996 to 8% in 1999 (not 8% in 1998).
Peter Rubec
The exact year wasn't the issue. The fact that even when cyanide was only at 8 percent people were still slamming PI for its rampant use of cyanide.
Again, Today people are slamming Bali without the least shred of evidence to support the claim.
Sure, competing fish exporters will always denigrate each others product and aggrandize their own fish.Thats salesmanship in Indo.
When both suppliers fish look the same to the customer, the only thing left to do is make up some hidden quality that the buyer can see like " cyanide damage"
What happened in 1999 was "science" showing "gossip" who's boss .
Again, Today people are slamming Bali without the least shred of evidence to support the claim.
Sure, competing fish exporters will always denigrate each others product and aggrandize their own fish.Thats salesmanship in Indo.
When both suppliers fish look the same to the customer, the only thing left to do is make up some hidden quality that the buyer can see like " cyanide damage"
What happened in 1999 was "science" showing "gossip" who's boss .
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Klak,
The MAC country co-ordinator for Indonesia has a credibility beyond most and in an unwanted way.
Her job is to get netcaught certified divers into the chain to be fed the Indo exporters association .
She has funding, the mandate, the certified exporters facilities etc. The only problem she says is that the divers are still using too much cyanide and they don't know how to catch fish with nets. In fact, she said the word in her villages is that with out cyanide many fish are impossible to collect!
She asked for help in training her villages to the standards of Les Village so that the certified dealers in Bali cann have something to sell.
In other words...she confirms that the MAC presence in Indo has been a tragic failure and the only full time Kosher pickles are in Les.
She wants training and cannot get it thru MAC as they have no idea how to proceed beyond trying to pirate others suppliers....and she sure can't do it!
Steve
PS I told her that I don't work for MAC....and that there are 100 net collectors nearby that don't either.
I also told her that she should join the 100% Indonesian groups that is doing the right thing and kick the inept foreigners out. They cannot contribute anything that you don't already have locally now and they are a breed apart and make no sense!
Steve
The MAC country co-ordinator for Indonesia has a credibility beyond most and in an unwanted way.
Her job is to get netcaught certified divers into the chain to be fed the Indo exporters association .
She has funding, the mandate, the certified exporters facilities etc. The only problem she says is that the divers are still using too much cyanide and they don't know how to catch fish with nets. In fact, she said the word in her villages is that with out cyanide many fish are impossible to collect!
She asked for help in training her villages to the standards of Les Village so that the certified dealers in Bali cann have something to sell.
In other words...she confirms that the MAC presence in Indo has been a tragic failure and the only full time Kosher pickles are in Les.
She wants training and cannot get it thru MAC as they have no idea how to proceed beyond trying to pirate others suppliers....and she sure can't do it!
Steve
PS I told her that I don't work for MAC....and that there are 100 net collectors nearby that don't either.
I also told her that she should join the 100% Indonesian groups that is doing the right thing and kick the inept foreigners out. They cannot contribute anything that you don't already have locally now and they are a breed apart and make no sense!
Steve
Kalk,
Im not sure if you didnt understand my last post, or you didnt want to understand it.
I was saying an Indonesian exporter was refering HIS OWN goods, not somebody else's, he was just very honest, and I'm talking one of the truly largest exporters there.
I dont know why are you saying:
"Today people are slamming Bali without the least shred of evidence to support the claim. "
we tested few Pomacanthidae for being caught with cyanide, we will not continue testing it again and again,as it costs money and time, and there's no point in proving the obvious, as some fish continue dying from what seems to be cyanide related deaths.
I spoke with a very big importer who imports ~ 100 box weekly from Bali, Medan and Jakarta and he says he's convinced they are all using cyanide, he says the trick is to find the suppliers who's divers knows how to use it, means , not over dosing, and supplying specimens that ships well and wont die in the first weeks.
Its sad but true.
Cortez wrote:
"In fact, she said the word in her villages is that with out cyanide many fish are impossible to collect! "
Agreed Steve, I heard it before on few occassions.
Im not sure if you didnt understand my last post, or you didnt want to understand it.
I was saying an Indonesian exporter was refering HIS OWN goods, not somebody else's, he was just very honest, and I'm talking one of the truly largest exporters there.
I dont know why are you saying:
"Today people are slamming Bali without the least shred of evidence to support the claim. "
we tested few Pomacanthidae for being caught with cyanide, we will not continue testing it again and again,as it costs money and time, and there's no point in proving the obvious, as some fish continue dying from what seems to be cyanide related deaths.
I spoke with a very big importer who imports ~ 100 box weekly from Bali, Medan and Jakarta and he says he's convinced they are all using cyanide, he says the trick is to find the suppliers who's divers knows how to use it, means , not over dosing, and supplying specimens that ships well and wont die in the first weeks.
Its sad but true.
Cortez wrote:
"In fact, she said the word in her villages is that with out cyanide many fish are impossible to collect! "
Agreed Steve, I heard it before on few occassions.
Gee , I guess all ten boxes were Blue tangs?
Yes most blue tangs must be collected with cyanide in order to get them out
of the coral. (or a crow bar)
But finding out that most blue tangs are juiced is hardly a case for blanketing all fish from Indonesia as juiced.
Thats the same assumption that the CDT made in PI.
:wink:
Yes most blue tangs must be collected with cyanide in order to get them out
of the coral. (or a crow bar)
But finding out that most blue tangs are juiced is hardly a case for blanketing all fish from Indonesia as juiced.
Thats the same assumption that the CDT made in PI.
:wink:
Kalk, How does a 6 CDT laboratories with qualified chemists and biologists working for IMA under contract to BFAR become "assumptions" about cyanide use? Please explain how you dismiss 48,000 cyanide tests over 8 years conducted in PI?
As far as Indonesia, there are numerous reports of cyanide use by respected scientists (like Narikome Bentely's report to WWF) that confirm the widespread use of cyanide in Indonesia in both the live food fish and the live marine aquarium fish trades. The IMA also had operatives that collected information directly from the collectors. So, I agree with Steve, Indonesia is now the cyanide capital of the world.
Peter Rubec
As far as Indonesia, there are numerous reports of cyanide use by respected scientists (like Narikome Bentely's report to WWF) that confirm the widespread use of cyanide in Indonesia in both the live food fish and the live marine aquarium fish trades. The IMA also had operatives that collected information directly from the collectors. So, I agree with Steve, Indonesia is now the cyanide capital of the world.
Peter Rubec
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Kalk,
You didn't lernt nuttin from all these years on RDO?
You write;
Yes most blue tangs must be collected with cyanide in order to get them out
of the coral. (or a crow bar)
Not true.
Blue tangs are collected in the South Pacific and Australia without ruining the corals.
It is simply a training issue and Ruwis Indonesian netcaught blue tang catchers from Bali prove it every day.
Its a lot more then blue tangs that are coming in caught w/ juice.
Steve
You didn't lernt nuttin from all these years on RDO?
You write;
Yes most blue tangs must be collected with cyanide in order to get them out
of the coral. (or a crow bar)
Not true.
Blue tangs are collected in the South Pacific and Australia without ruining the corals.
It is simply a training issue and Ruwis Indonesian netcaught blue tang catchers from Bali prove it every day.
Its a lot more then blue tangs that are coming in caught w/ juice.
Steve
I see the lists from Dateline ,Vanuatu and Daves Sol each week.
I also see several lists of Indo and PI.
Most weeks they [the mid Pacific] sources] dont have any Regals .
Sure some weeks they pop up.
Dateline had six fish last week.
Vanuatu had twenty.
And Sol had lots of extra tiny.[ 1/2 inch fry]
Hardly the bounty you suggest.
Hey , Steve Book fish, how many Tongan blues are on your list this week/Year?
I also see several lists of Indo and PI.
Most weeks they [the mid Pacific] sources] dont have any Regals .
Sure some weeks they pop up.
Dateline had six fish last week.
Vanuatu had twenty.
And Sol had lots of extra tiny.[ 1/2 inch fry]
Hardly the bounty you suggest.
Hey , Steve Book fish, how many Tongan blues are on your list this week/Year?
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