Florida Wholesale Collection Habits

[naesco]

Steve, As I recall, the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources vetoed the idea of substituting cyanide with quinaldine.

I have interviewed a former MAF collector in the Florida Keys who told that the mortality in her holding facility on fishes caught using quinaldine was 59%. Considering this and other detrimental effects, we should be banning the use of quinaldine for MAF collection in Florida. It is a good thing that BFAR vetoed the PIJAC plan.

Peter

Absolutely Dr. Rubec.

I am taking steps to notify the authorities to ensure that this practice happening at our doorstep is stopped immediately.

The only fish industry should allow at the borders are net caught fish.

Is there a quin detection test?

Thank you

 

[clarionreef]

quin detection test;
beer,
buy any fish collecting bubba down in the keys a half dozen beers...or more.
They'll tell you all you want to know.
I did.
Steve

 

[naesco]

quin detection test;
beer,
buy any fish collecting bubba down in the keys a half dozen beers...or more.
They'll tell you all you want to know.
I did.
Steve

:lol: :lol:

 

[PeterIMA]

Naesco,

Since the use of quinaldine is legal, there is no difficulty in getting the collectors to admit that they use it. If it were illlegal, a test for detecting quinaldine residues (DQR) in the fish could be devised, but it would be expensive. There are publications describing how to detect quinaldine residues in fish.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

<scratching head>
What sort of MO collecting happens in Canadian waters?
</scratching head>

 

[naesco]

Naesco,

Since the use of quinaldine is legal, there is no difficulty in getting the collectors to admit that they use it. If it were illlegal, a test for detecting quinaldine residues (DQR) in the fish could be devised, but it would be expensive. There are publications describing how to detect quinaldine residues in fish.

Peter

Thank you Dr. Rubec. Would you or Steve know who manufactures this drug?
Typically who sells it to the collectors?

Thanks
Wayne

 

[naesco]

<scratching head>
What sort of MO collecting happens in Canadian waters?
</scratching head>

Please let me help you.
It is USCRTF. OK, United States Coral Reef Task Force.
Even though it is an American institution, its task is to improve the reefs worldwide.
There would no better opportunity for immediate benefit than to stop the use of quin in there own territorial waters and prohibit the sale of this poison to its neighbours for use in the fishery or, prohibit the import of fish from those countries that continue its use.
I am getting started on this right away.
Wayne

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry Wayne.. I'm not trying to troll you, but I'm just curious.. - Most agencies really don't give a rip about hearing opinions from someone not in their jurisdiction..

Just as if you were to send me an email about my City website not being friendly for the blind.. - Yeah, you're right, its not.. - So what? - Until someone local complains, I'm really not too compelled to care.. - Sorry, but thats just the hard fact of it.

I just think your efforts in a lot of these things might be better served by maybe helping to eductate some of us dumb, rich American hobbyists (or maybe some of your fellow dumb, rich Canadian hobbyists) than shooting off to politicians, NGO's, etc that probably won't give your views more than a cursory glance.

I don't know, thats just my two cents.. - I do applaud your common desire to see the industry run in a more responsible, sustainable manner though..

Norm

 

[PeterIMA]

In Florida collection permits are issued throught the Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commissionn (FWC). Jaap and Wheaton (coral reef ecologists) with FWC did a study in about 1987 that demonstrated that quinaldine was harmless to corals and adult fish (did not kill adult fish immediately on the reef). There is evidence that it kills fish larvae, mollusks, and invertebrates at the point of collection. Walt created a quinaldine bibliography, that I have in my possession. Basically, the literature does not provide compelling evidence to justify banning quinaldine in Florida. If more study was done on its use by the aquarium trade, there might be more information created to support banning its use in collection of aquarium fishes.

I agree with Naesco that it should be banned. Nets and other techniques (other than drugs) can be used to collect practically all species. Hence, there is no need for the use of an expensive drug like quinaldine.

Peter

 

[JeremyR]

I've asked wholesalers before in florida.. they have no problem admitting using it. You don't even need beer.

 

[clarionreef]

There is a permit process and there are not that many legal permits as Spawner has pointed out the last time we were on this cycle.
The prevalance of drug fishing in Florida just underscores the poor quality of fish processors we often have compared to some other countries.
Despite the fact that Florida has had excellent all-net collectors they backslid as a whole with the aid of a bureaucratic/scientific community that found little fault with drug collecting.
In other words, they did what they were allowed to get away with doing.
Aussies are much, much better then Americans at this.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

A rising consumer economy fueled by corporate chains and larger financial concerns than before demands product...lots of product on a predictable timeline and ever increasing scale.
This tends to drive down the craft and the talent for collecting reasonable and sustainable quantities of fish and in a reasonable and quality oriented way.
The craft of fish collecting in Florida started as an all netsman enterprise with Robert Straughn.
Billy Causey and his wife continued the tradition showing the druggies how to do it.
As with so many other things though, the meatheads and the trailer park collectors grew in number envious of the success of the good guys. Soon, they became the dominant population of collectors.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Thank you for your post Norm.

To date I have not contacted any US government authority although I have had brief meetings with Canadian Wildlife.

It is my very sincere desire that industry recognize that it is unacceptable for things to continue the way they are. Quin is another example. It is of little effect on industry if industry itself puts forward the request that quin be phased out. It is a huge step towards industry taking control of its own destiny. What say you all??

Through emails, PMs and telephone calls I have a reasonable confidence level that change from within industry is happening. There are issues like leadership, getting industry together on the same page, etc. which have to be resolved but things are moving forward dispite some of the regular posters negativity. Thinking industry types know that reeform is necessary.

Having stated the above, it is time for industry to be seen to be doing something.

Norm, I am setting up a new tank. I bought live rock from a fella who is getting out of the hobby and will stock the tank with frags and net caught fish.
I do want the option of being able to buy a nice wild coral specimen when I see one.
If the government gets involved it is my personal opinion that they will take uninformed steps to shut many things down.

I do not want to see that the only option left for hobbyists is trading brown frags with eachother.
Wayne

 

[naesco]

Dr. Rubec:

Twenty years ago many things were acceptable. Today, in many instances, people would be jailed if they were to do those same things.

As net caught fish are available there is no justification for the use of quin. If the truth be told it probably comes down to laziness on the part of the collectors, eh!

Industry should take a stand on this issue while at the same time taking steps to show govenment that reeform is in progress on other matters raised in this forum.

Wayne

 

[clarionreef]

Steve wrote;
"A rising consumer economy fueled by corporate chains and larger financial concerns than before demands product...lots of product on a predictable timeline and ever increasing scale."

And these "larger financial concerns" require competitive advantages and environmental absolution...and will pay for it.
Selling higher eco-FICO scores and concocting eco-credit repair [ albiet on a template ] is a hot new industry...
The amazing thing is, it works!
Absolution without restitution!
[Like the richest Spanish viceroys who paid church figures to reserve their spot in heaven.]
The mission is not about genuine changes out on the reefs or in the lot of fisherfolks lives but in the perception of change, image enhancement and continued and increasing sales.
The environmental movement is morphing into a business partner before our eyes w/ the more willing [ ...cough...read larger ] collaborators.

The guiltier the industry the larger the prize to absolve it...not rehabilitate or actually reform it...but get it off the hook.
[Thats why Walmart will soon have certified shrimp from environmentally devasting practices.]
I thought we should actually solve the problem eminating from the core of the problem up...this was apparently a minority opinion.
Why fix a thing if papering it over works?
Steve
keywords; O.J. Johnnie Cochran, slight of hand, eye on the ball, whitewash, greenwash, 'wag the dog' etc.

 

[Anonymous]

I stumbled on this new website tonight. It has this amazing feature Wayne. It searches the web for any word or words you enter. You can find it on www.google.com


http://www.chemexper.com/index.shtml?ma ... -63-4.html

http://www.chemblink.com/productSupplie ... pliers.htm

http://www.kellysearch.com/qz-product-116608.html

http://www.chemicalregister.com/5-Chlor ... id1631.htm

http://www.maharashtradirectory.com/Buy ... ductID=458

Makes yah think that just like cyanide, theirs a huge industrial use of quin outside our tiny trade


Hey look, one of your fellow Canadians kinda asking the same thing as you Wayne, but back in 97' :lol:

http://segate.sunet.se/cgi-bin/wa?A2=in ... =1&P=15394

 

[bobimport]

[] have interviewed a former MAF collector in the Florida Keys who told that the mortality in her holding facility on fishes caught using quinaldine was 59%. Considering this and other detrimental effects, we should be banning the use of quinaldine for MAF collection in Florida. It is a good thing that BFAR vetoed the PIJAC plan.

Peter

Back to top

59% DOA? you mean ex colector that would put anyone out of business.[/quote]

 

[bobimport]

Hi steve

Good to see you again. That was a nasty swipe at the guy's in the Key's who live in trailers. FYI a doubble wide with land in the Keys is $550,000. I don't give the Keys much longer for collecting. Land prices are to high. The larger collectors cant find anyone to work. Even Burger King has to buss workers in. most old time collectors are sitting on a few million dollars worth of land. They are cashing out as we speak. The hurricans have wiped out the collecting. ( anyone seen a blue angel?) Alge is crapping up most of the good spots. Gas is $4 a gallon and now you have to run your boat a lot longer to find fish. So juceing in the Keys is a self correcting problem

Bob

 

[spawner]

Steve, As I recall, the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources vetoed the idea of substituting cyanide with quinaldine.

I have interviewed a former MAF collector in the Florida Keys who told that the mortality in her holding facility on fishes caught using quinaldine was 59%. Considering this and other detrimental effects, we should be banning the use of quinaldine for MAF collection in Florida. It is a good thing that BFAR vetoed the PIJAC plan.

Peter

I use a lot of it to move fish from one tank to another, with little or no effect on the fish, they go to sleep and wake back up, eat a few minutes later. In fact, I would go as far to say that I would not move a large senstive fish without given them a bit of Q. I ship fish with it as well. It's a very effective tool.

I would question the method its use and concentration, not the drug. It's safe and effective when used properly and deadly when used incorrectly, but so is Asprin. 59% is the collectors methods, not the drug. I can get 59% mortaility with H2O if you don't know how to use it.

 

[PeterIMA]

The person (female) who gave me the 59% figure for mortality of MAF caught with quinaldine (in her holding facility) was a FORMER fish collector in the keys. At the time I spoke to her (about 5 years ago) she worked for the Florida Department of Environmental protection.

Now to the next anti-quinaldine allegation. I seem to recall that Tropic stated it makes the fish evert their guts. This was presented on RDO when we discussed clove oil a few months ago. So, lets hear what you think about that assertion.

Peter