Question for B&M's...

[JennM]

Oh and a parting shot...

Selling "the best" of anything means nothing if it all winds up in a septic tank.

Jenn

 

[SavetheReefs]

Hey Rascal here is my experience with the wholesalers. I too have done business with all of the companies you have mentioned and I used to believe in building relationships and all that. Until I had a problem with a company on 104th that I did over $70k with one year and I did not even get a call back when I left messages for the owner. Not only that, the problem that I had complained about continued 2 more times after I made my original complaint until I finally decided to cut all ties with them.

As far as cherry picking, I have hired cherry pickers but the wholesalers practically double there price and I still had to pay a fee to the cherry picker. I am currently working with someone who picks the livestock and purchases it through their company and they ship to me. This is especially important when it comes to Zoos. I have spent thousands of dollars with different wholesalers on brown zoos that were called super colored.

So with that being said I am going to import and start a wholesale company myself. There are literally hundreds of exporters who would love to sell you their livestock. Both salt and fresh. And I am prepared to invest and travel to these places to start a relationship with these people.

My big question, and is news to me, what mail order companies are drop shipping from the 104th. If you do not feel like posting these companies please pm or email me those names. But this does not surprise me, all the mail order companies have to do is at least double their price and hope the fish lives 7 or 14 days depending on their policy.

SavetheReefs

 

[Rascal]

Thanks everyone for your time in posting. The dialog is healthy and the information is quite invaluable to me.

Jenn - you made a number of points and frankly, I couldn't have said it better. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in my views on this subject.

I'm glad you picked up on the level of support that Race received from his customers. If you want to visit his forum on RC again and peruse the existing threads you might notice, as did I, the number of general complaints by the thread starters. Seems to me it's about 50/50. Team DrF/S are doing a fair amount of damage control. Just an observation.

Your comment about the MO's getting "all" the cherries is likely warranted, for now. My concern is that hard working members in this industry like you and me take a back seat in the future. I've never questioned the success of Race Foster, nor his business plan. Unfortunately, he IS playing fair. I DO have exception with some of the wholesalers in LA, and elsewhere I suspect, that will contunue to provide product to any MO business that has an unfair advantage me and other B&M's. Regardless of whether or not it is "legal", it's just not fair in my opinion. As a matter of point, do you think that wholesaler would dropship a coral beauty and a half dozen astreas for you?

Dr. Foster mentioned on a few occasions that his LA supplier was Ocean to Ocean. That is exactly when I got involved in the initial thread, and my response was "Huh"? As it was revealed to me via PM, O2O is Quality Marine. Same address. I've sensed some pussy-footing around this fact over the months, but if it's a none issue, then it shouldn't be a secret.

Your point that you wouldn't buy from a wholesaler that was selling to Race speaks volumes. I know that there other wholesalers that sell to DRF/S, as well as other dropshipping MO companies. Maybe it is time that these wholesalers be identified. Then I can give my business to the ones that respect the B&M. SavetheReefs, maybe this is your que.

 

[Kalkbreath]

SavetheReefs

Just a word of advise on sending money over seas, Dont even attempt to sort out the crooks from the real dealers in Jakarta/ Bali/Sula.
Ive lost many a thousands. There are five or six real coral exporters.....and twenty bogas ones wanting you to wire money. :wink:
Even some of the real exporters big names Like "LINDA" or "Mooky"8O ........will leave you hanging if your a small time dealer. {whats ya gonna do sue them in Jakarta?
Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.

 

[SavetheReefs]

Thanks for the info Kalk.

And Rascal your post is the first time I heard that these MO companies are getting dropshipped orders from 104th.

Now dont get me wrong, I have a couple of websites with a couple of more being built but all of my livegoods come direct from me. And not to mentioned the livestock is quarantined as well.

So I wish someone would post who the culprits are.

SavetheReefs

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you guys for the responses you have offered so far. It is interesting to note that you have all made a point in mentioning that you receive cherries from your suppliers. The truth is, so do I. But if you look at my original question that isn't really what I was asking.

I have a certain issue with a MO company (the thread is back on RC) that attests that the quality of his livestock is of better quality than mine. His company offers a 14 day warranty on this live product, and in essence has used that as a measure of the quality of his fish/corals.

It has been pointed out numerous times that these MO companies (who dropship from 104th) have a huge cost advantage over the B&Ms. But, they never see the product. How, if we ARE all getting the same quality fish, do they make the claim that their fish are better than mine. Maybe I take this a little too personally. But I know the efforts that I put forth to "clean up" my fish. No big secret usually, but just about every fish goes through our particular regime in order to minimize parasites, reduce stress, and get them eating...before they are offered for sale.

Am I the only one who is offended by this marketing strategy?

well that's quite the sweeping generalization, and patently false-why do you state that ALL 'drop shippers' send out their livestock sight unseen ?

you obviously haven't worked for all of them, and probably not one of them, yet you seem to know exactly how they all work ( ? )

how is a shipper going to get a size match, approximately healthy looking specimen without at least eyeballing the livestock ? (as at least one of them does).

 

[aquaticvet1]

I am not sure where this thread is heading but perhaps I can help.Below are the Race facts .

Race Foster Facts:

We only sell premium fish and corals. There are none better entering this country but there are some as good.

We dropship some fish from Los Angeles and Miami and ship others
from Wisconsin . We are shipping more and more from Wisconsin .

We do not buy all of the "Cherry" fish and corals from any of our 10 or so suppliers . We only get a percentage based on our portion of sales from a particular vendor . All retailers and etailers have equal access to " Cherry" animals should they elect to pay for them .

We will pay a premium price to any quality vendor for the top quality specimans. We do not want a discount or discounted fish and corals. We will get the best fish that are available to us.

There is not a dropshipper in Los Angeles that only ships for LiveAquaria . Ocean 2 Ocean was in business BEFORE I ever entered the livestock arena .They ship to others as well as fulfill SOME of our orders . They were not created to fulfill for us . O2O does not supply all of our fish that they ship nor do they allow us to "cherry" pick fish destined for the retail markets. We are allotted rare fish based on our percentage of sales. We do not get more than any other customer when based on a sales percentage . That is only fair and I have no problem with that.

I never stated that I have better fish than retailers but I will state that we only purchase and sell the very best fish and corals available. There are as good of fish available from quality retail stores who use the same quality sources (wholesalers and distributors) that we use. We DO NOT get all of the quality fish from any one supplier but we do get what we need to fill our orders and we WILL pay a premium for such.

We will never sell a substandard fish or coral and will always stand behind everything we sell ----all with a 100% money back guarantee.

Hopefully this helps and please "stay tuned" for another press release on LiveAquaria.com concerning how we secure a quality supply.

Thank you , Race Foster ---- LiveAquaria.com DrsFosterSmith.com

 

[Anonymous]

We will never sell a substandard fish or coral and

I just don't understand how you can say this. Would you mind explaining it to me? I just don't see how you can make a claim like this without you yourself having positive control of your livestock.

I can see if you said, "we will never intentionally sell", or any number of different ways to say it, but to say it as a "Race Foster Fact" as you put it...no. Standing behind the stuff you sell is a different animal altogether.

But this also makes me question about those people who complained publically in the past that they didn't get healthy specimens? Were they just lying? Or is this a clintonism...."please define the word 'substandard'"?

Without your physical presence and participation where each items gets bagged and shipped it just doesn't make sense to me. Pardon me.

 

[clarionreef]

Foster writes;

"I never stated that I have better fish than retailers but I will state that we only purchase and sell the very best fish and corals available. There are as good of fish available from quality retail stores who use the same quality sources (wholesalers and distributors) that we use. We DO NOT get all of the quality fish from any one supplier but we do get what we need to fill our orders and we WILL pay a premium for such.

We will never sell a substandard fish or coral and will always stand behind everything we sell ----all with a 100% money back guarantee. "


How is this not crass commercial grandstanding and flagrant self promotion??
Many of us can make arrogant claims like that and better ones but are restrained from doing so as its against the rules of the forum.
I for one... forgot more about tropical fish quality last nite then this poster ever knew but cannot weave it into an ad here as it would be wrong.
I also sell fish for a living...as well as collect and consult....But I cannot imagine how sales pitches and self promotion talk can be the central subject of my every offering here. ...as it is with F$S.
Indeed, I was just admonished recently for answering a question about a shrimp source that was considered skirting the edge of commercialism.

We have been warned about commercial promtion here....and the warning needs to be given fairly to all.
This is not a commercial billboard.
To be sure there are issues to be discussed but when every post from Race gets converted to private business schilling , I think it needs a warning from the monitors.
Steve
"no commercial affiliation mentioned "

 

[bookfish]

Steve, I am watching this thread and in this case, since it was a response to a quality related question, I think that it may constitute grandstanding but does not constitute a commercial post.-Jim

 

[SavetheReefs]

Cortez I hear what you are saying but I think that the Drs. post was within limits. Basically he came on here and defended and explained his companys practices. Now by no means do I agree with what he said and I therefore PMed Dr Foster with some questions.

Now some would say that your name alone is commercial posting/advertising?

And this is the industry behind the hobby forum and I feel is a good place for such debate. Now with that being said maybe reefs.org should make this forum only available to see and post on by people within the industry.

But this is just my 2 cents.

SavetheReefs

 

[clarionreef]

Jim,
Then all quality related questions can segue into a self promotion of ones estimation of ones superior handling on quality issues...and ones superior policies and ones superior sources etc.
We all 'intimate....suggest and infer..as to what we do ' but rarely do we get constant, blatant advertising in lieu of opinion as we do from this outfit.

Discussion of the issues is fine....constant personal promotion...on every single post is not. Thats what paid advertising is all about.
Steve

 

[Rascal]

Dr. Foster,

With all due respect, I contend that you DID say that your fish are better than mine...and the general B&Ms. Unfortunately, as a direct response to your might on RC I no longer have access to those threads.

As a matter of courtesy, I would ask that you look to restore my privileges on RC.

My dialog with you was never slanderous, and any negativities were only promulgated by your supporters.

Sincerest regards.

 

[bookfish]

Steve, I understand what you're saying and would certainly agree if this wasn't a response to a direct question on these issues. I also find that many people committed to their "company line" will use ad type language out of habit when discussing their company's performance or standards. I don't feel that post is an ad but I'm happy to discuss it further (by PM).
Thx-Jim

 

[JennM]

Thank you guys for the responses you have offered so far. It is interesting to note that you have all made a point in mentioning that you receive cherries from your suppliers. The truth is, so do I. But if you look at my original question that isn't really what I was asking.

I have a certain issue with a MO company (the thread is back on RC) that attests that the quality of his livestock is of better quality than mine. His company offers a 14 day warranty on this live product, and in essence has used that as a measure of the quality of his fish/corals.

It has been pointed out numerous times that these MO companies (who dropship from 104th) have a huge cost advantage over the B&Ms. But, they never see the product. How, if we ARE all getting the same quality fish, do they make the claim that their fish are better than mine. Maybe I take this a little too personally. But I know the efforts that I put forth to "clean up" my fish. No big secret usually, but just about every fish goes through our particular regime in order to minimize parasites, reduce stress, and get them eating...before they are offered for sale.

Am I the only one who is offended by this marketing strategy?

well that's quite the sweeping generalization, and patently false-why do you state that ALL 'drop shippers' send out their livestock sight unseen ?

you obviously haven't worked for all of them, and probably not one of them, yet you seem to know exactly how they all work ( ? )

how is a shipper going to get a size match, approximately healthy looking specimen without at least eyeballing the livestock ? (as at least one of them does).

Vitz, where did he say that all etailers are drop shippers? What *I* read is a reference to those who drop ship from 104th. That didn't say that all do, but IMO his point was valid toward those who do.

Semantics, yes, but since you're pointing it out I thought I'd note the correction.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Jack Wishy (Savethereefs) ,
This is in response to your private message which I think should be public.
I would encourage you to produce your website but keep it factual . I would also encourage you to attend our 2006 Coral Conference in Wisconsin and inspect things for yourself.

Your informant on 104th is wrong. We do not keep a physical office in L.A.. As I mentioned all entities existed before I did. I might also add that many of our fish do not ever see 104th as they do not originate there. For the other answers please stay tuned to the new LiveAquaria.com press release.

Yes, I think that you and others have equal access to good fish but they come at a price and they should.

As far as substandard fish , I agree that I should have stated " never intentionally sell". I will grant you that , as a very small percentage may get damaged in shipping. All are covered by our guarantee which means that the end fish sold is never substandard. You either get your money back in which case you did not make a purchase or we reship until things are perfect . The end result is that the customer always gets what they pay for. Sorry Steve , I am answering his direct question.

I prefer public responses so please no private inquiries. Jack, please post your P.M. so that others can understand my answers . Thank you.
Thank you-------Race Foster

 

[dizzy]

Race,
While you are being so open and honest, I think it would be helpful if you gave us a little more detailed breakdown of your operation. For example what percentage of your Indo Pacific fish are shipped out of LA and what % are shipped out of Wisconsin? What percentage of Caribbean fish are shipped out of Wisconsin and what % from say Florida? You say you use more than one LA wholesaler to dropship for you. Just what total percentage does O2O have in the scheme. You mentioned that getting cherries is based on volume, so it makes sense to show a little loyalty and not spread the love to much. After all you must realize that some will punish QM by not buying from them because they see them as a big enabler in all this. Since fairly or not, that is the case, I think you should make it up to them by buying big. Don't you.
Mitch

 

[JennM]

Why is it that every time Race posts, I feel like he's treating us all like the "great unwashed?" :roll:

We only sell premium fish and corals. There are none better entering this country but there are some as good.

That's a pretty lofty statement. How can you back this up? Unless you or a qualified representative is present inspecting every single shipment entering this country at every point of entry, you can't. Nice marketing ploy, but I'm not buying it.

We dropship some fish from Los Angeles and Miami and ship others
from Wisconsin . We are shipping more and more from Wisconsin .

Pretty hard to be in every place at once, isn't it? So fish and corals that travel to Wisconsin are somehow better? Otherwise why emphasize this so much?

We do not buy all of the "Cherry" fish and corals from any of our 10 or so suppliers . We only get a percentage based on our portion of sales from a particular vendor . All retailers and etailers have equal access to " Cherry" animals should they elect to pay for them .

And there are more than 10 suppliers out there. Hence I don't buy from one of "your" 10. And again I'll ask how you can claim that nothing better than what *you* buy and resell comes into the country? Try as you might, you aren't omniscient, so you can't be absolutely certain that your stuff is any better than my stuff, Rascal's stuff, or anyone else's stuff that is coming in. You may be able to fool the rest of the "great unwashed" but you aren't fooling me.

We will pay a premium price to any quality vendor for the top quality specimans. We do not want a discount or discounted fish and corals. We will get the best fish that are available to us.

So money talks and bullshit walks. That's business, no matter who you are. Think a Mom & Pop isn't willing to pay top dollar for a cherry? I will, and I do, for a hobbyist who wants a given specimen, AND someone who, while working with me, has established a system to support it.

There is not a dropshipper in Los Angeles that only ships for LiveAquaria . Ocean 2 Ocean was in business BEFORE I ever entered the livestock arena .They ship to others as well as fullfill SOME of our orders . They were not created to fullfill for us . O2O does not supply all of our fish that they ship nor do they allow us to "cherry" pick fish destined for the retail markets. We are allotted rare fish based on our percentage of sales. We do not get more than any other customer when based on a sales percentage . That is only fair and I have no problem with that.

Is the room spinning, or is it just me? Nobody with an ounce of business sense, puts all their eggs in one basket. So O2O isn't exclusive - means nothing.

I never stated that I have better fish than retailers but I will state that we only purchase and sell the very best fish and corals available.

You imply it all day long. You've spent countless keystrokes spinning your business as having only and all the very best of the best -- but again I have to ask you just how you can back up that claim?

And "best available" is a relative term... what if the best yellow tangs "available" today all have torn fins? Do you ship them anyway, or do you ask the customer to come back in a week or two when they've healed up?

There are as good of fish available from quality retail stores who use the same quality sources (wholesalers and distributors) that we use.

This one cracked me up I don't use the same "quality" suppliers (interesting choice of word) because I found it to be an oxymoron. Read into that as you wish - but that was some years ago before the mighty DFS became the be-all and end-all of fishdom. There's plenty better out there but they aren't catering to the mega corporations. There's a lot to be said for smaller distributors run by people who care about what they do, and not only the bottom line. You don't use my supplier, and I doubt you ever could. Thank God for small mercies

We DO NOT get all of the quality fish from any one supplier but we do get what we need to fill our orders and we WILL pay a premium for such.

Again waving the almighty dollar in our faces. We get it... you're big, you have buying power... but just remember there is more than one way to filet a fish

We will never sell a substandard fish or coral and will always stand behind everything we sell ----all with a 100% money back guarantee.

Want to insert the word "knowingly" in there? I've taken in some of the stuff that your customers have bought, without the benefit of counsel from a good LFS, they've ended up with stuff totally inappropriate for their systems, and some of it was in less than perfect condition. I don't know if they asked for their money back.

Hopefully this helps and please "stay tuned" for another press release on LiveAquaria.com concerning how we secure a quality supply.

I'm on the edge of my seat...

Again, I'll conclude that what the good Doctor spews is spin. It's all 100% marketing stuff and nonsense.

Race, how much time do you spend on these boards answering hobbyist questions and helping people overcome hair algae, aiptasia, discussing system setup and fish compatibility? That's all part of the business too...

I and others of my aquaintance, spend many hours both in person and online, helping people keep all those "premium" (cough) fish alive... that's part of the job too.

Like I said before - all the adjectives describing how wonderful the livestock is, are moot if they are instantly killed by the hobbyist. Sure you have a money back guarantee - but do you not also realize that after a given number of deaths, the hobbyist gets discouraged and quits the hobby?

What are you doing for the well-being of all that cherry livestock after the fact?

Uh huh....

If I tooted my own store's horn the way Race has tooted his, I'm sure I'd get my own hand slapped too for commercialism. That's OK.. I don't need to sing it from the rooftops - my customers already know, and word keeps getting around

Jenn

 

[JennM]

Yes, I think that you and others have equal access to good fish but they come at a price and they should.

Did anybody dispute this? Because if they did, I'm not seeing it.

As far as substandard fish , I agree that I should have stated " never intentionally sell". I will grant you that , as a very small percentage may get damaged in shipping. All are covered by our guarantee which means that the end fish sold is never substandard. You either get your money back in which case you did not make a purchase or we reship until things are perfect . The end result is that the customer always gets what they pay for. Sorry Steve , I am answering his direct question.

Ah but they *did* make the purchase. Giving somebody their money back is fine and dandy - do you imply that you are the only entity that will generate a refund if the customer isn't satisfied? In making their intial purchase, they agree to be available to receive the delivery, thus usually interrupting their day to do so... so if they get a dud, can you give them back their time too? If they did get a dud, they got a dud. You agree to compensate them, fine but that doesn't erase history. It's great that you offer good customer service, but it doesn't change the facts.

Your marketing strategy is brilliant, I'll give you that. It's actually a great play on human psychology - yes there are some people who will find fault with just about anything, and go to any lengths to be compensated as such. Most people, if dissatisfied with any purchase of any kind, won't be bothered to go to the trouble of seeking a refund or replacement. They cut their losses and move on. Some will try again with the same dealer, many won't. It's a brilliant gamble that *most* won't bother, so it's a good calculated risk. That "small percentage" of refunds or replacements aren't necessarily an accurate assessment of the reality of what's shipped - it's just a census of how many actually bother to seek compensation.

Years ago, I ordered online from an entity that is now owned by DFS (this was BEFORE they were assimilated into the Borg ). To say my order was "substandard" would be an understatement. I ordered 4 "bread and butter" organisms - 3 fish and an invertebrate. One fish was long since dead in the bag (probably long before it was repacked, judging by the smell that eminated even through the sealed bag!), another died in acclimation and the invert was in pH shock and died shortly after a painstaking acclimation. In the end I ended up having paid $41 (my cost of the livestock and shared shipping in a pooled order) and all I had to show for it was a fish I could have bought for half of that, if I'd bought it locally. I reported the dead stuff I received, and was issued a credit... at that time the policy was I'd have to pay for shipping again in order to get my "free" replacements (which "encouraged" me to order more stuff to justify the shipping charge - another brilliant marketing strategy). I'd also have to interrupt another day waiting for FedEx to deliver it. Instead, I just ate the loss and chalked it up to experience. I'm not alone. I have many, many customers who had similar experiences, in the past, and even recently. Lesson learned, now they simply prefer to see the creature up close and personal before they buy it - perhaps leave it on hold for a week or so, and then purchase it.

Price point isn't all that either - I've looked on DFS' website and some of their prices are substantially higher than mine - probably in order to eat those guarantee losses.

Why do I feel like this thread is turning into an infomercial?

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

In fairness to Race I will say that I believe he does make every effort to buy the best livestock available. There can be quite a difference in the price of fish from different wholesalers and his main supplier is more known for good quality than cheap prices. By cutting out the cost of shipping to his facility, and the costs of holding those fish, he can offer them to the public at a more competitive price. I believe he is trying to mislead us a little on the percentage shipped out of Wisconsin though, because once he ships them there he loses the competitive advantage he seems so proud of. They probably just ship in stuff to Wisconsin to sell in their brick and mortar and not so much for reshipping. They prolly do ship quite a few cultured frags out of WI.
Mitch