• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

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aquaticvet1

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Hello again Mitch ,
I agree that direct shipping is putting pressure on the retail segment . I did not create the technology that allowed internet sales nor am I the driving factor , the customers are. It will not go away .
I might add that there will be another huge player in the direct shipping business shortly. I will have to compete with them whether I like it or not .
My point to AMDA is how can they remain a viable entity when so many of the fish and corals are being moved through channels other than retail ?
Without sounding too arrogant , my plan is to leave this industry behind and focus on catering to the way it will emerge . I will do it while AMDA whines about the internet and grows even more powerless .
I respect your opinions Mitch , and Steve I also admire your dedication to reform.
Good night-----Race
 

aquaticvet1

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Hi Andy ,
Kevin Kohen will be there. I will not as I have continuing education for Veterinary Medicine the following week and right after that have to be at the Veterinary College at Michigan State University . I cannot be away that long.
I do think that it would be prudent if a group of us got together and Andy you are always welcome should you make it to Wisconsin . Perhaps get a hold of Kevin Kohen at work and you guys can arrange something at the conference . Kevin is my single biggest asset and a great guy for all of you to meet.
Thank you , Race

P. S. To be constructive , I really believe that AMDA should reform so that we all can participate in the shaping of this industry . That is where we should get our heads together and function as a unit . The entire rest of the pet industry functions as a cohesive group , why not the marine industry? We need to move forward . There are many good minds here but so much lateral movement.
 

Kalkbreath

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I would be interested in hearing how the good Doctor feels about future hobbyist creation when and if brick and mortars become a thing of the past.
I find the number of hobbyists in a city decreases to almost nil when the LFS s pull out. What can the WEB do to turn the average Joe into a future hobbyist?
Just a reminder, as it stands today 90 percent of live animals are still sold the old fashion way. Even just the lfs in Metro Atlanta sell more livestock then FS and MD combined.
Also, there has been some talk about UPS Fed Ex and the other carriers discontinuing the transport of live animals.
What lays ahead for the industry may be more convoluted then current players think.
 

dizzy

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Race for the record I realize the dropping shipping game is here to stay. I just think there should be at least one or two wholesalers who cater to brick and mortars and who don't allow the cherry picking and don't dropship for etailers. I think if a large wholesaler would make this commitment to b&m retailers it could be a successful format. Kevin Kohen is a great resource for you. He is a very likeable guy. Burton Patrick is president of AMDA now. Maybe Burton should try to get into the dropshipping game as well, as he is about eight stores strong now. I understand Jack's Aquarium is already doing it. Maybe Petco and Petsmart should too. Big Al's too. How about Target and Wally World. The more the merrier. I don't really care.
Mitch
PS
I forgot Aquarium Adventure of Petland ilk.
 

JennM

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Mitch, Steve, et al...

I don't think we need to feel intimidated by the good Doctors or any other drop-shippers, for a variety of reasons.

Just as Jeff stated, the majority of hobbyists still shop the old fashioned way. Some venture to *try* the drop-ship way, but more often than not they run into snags.. like my customer who ordered a 2-3" BTA and received a 14" behemoth monster that consumed 8 of his fish before he humbly asked me to take it in. Think he'll ever order sight unseen again? I don't. He told me that was his last attempt at that.

Or the guy that bought the Harlequin Sweetlips (juv) because the seller's website said it was reef-safe and easy to keep? He was horrified to learn that I don't carry those because the juvies are hard to feed and the adults get larger than most hobbyists can accommodate, and it was certainly NOT reef-safe. Fortunately for him, and unfortunately for the fish, the fish died in his care before it became a serious problem. He did ask me to take it in - and I suppose I would have for the sake of the fish... at least I have a large enough tank to accommodate an adult.

Both of these customers learned the hard way that you can't always believe what you read online, and that sellers' websites can have an agenda that isn't always good for the customer. Neither of these hobbyists will order livestock online again - they have stated so after having bad experiences. Their experiences aren't unique. Back when I was "just" a hobbyist and not an industry member, I tried the online ordering thing and was bitterly disappointed too. I ended up with a bunch of dead stuff, one surviving sick fish, which I nursed back to health and a "credit" with the vendor - but of course I'd have to reorder and pay shipping again. No thanks - no sense putting good money after bad - I learned my lesson.

I just read and participated in a thread on another board a week or two ago where the customer bought from a WYSIWYG website, but the coral he received looked nothing at all like what he "saw" online. The debate was on as to whether it was indeed the same coral, was the image he saw online photoshopped, did the piece look that much different under different lights (which were actually the same lighting allegedly as the photo was taken under...). Last I saw the jury was still out and the thread locked on that one (all without the vendor being named, I might add). Needless to say, that puts quite a bit of doubt about the integrity of all etailers into the minds of readers and they may think twice before ordering online themselves. Nothing like bad publicity...

It only takes a hobbyist being burned by ONE etailer to turn him against most or all etailers. One can visit a bad LFS and decide not to shop there and look around for a good one to support. There is a lot of power to be had in having an open-to-the-public venue where people come in and see with their own eyes, what they are buying. People are visual and tactile - they want to see it, watch it, in the case of hard goods they want to pick it up and look at it, examine the quality... images online just can't duplicate that.

Most hobbyists still find value-added in paying a few dollars more for dry goods, and when you factor in shipping, it's not always cheaper to buy livestock online, and one can see and observe what one is buying before one takes it home. They get more after-sales service, develop a personal relationship with their LFS staff, we know their name, their spouse's name, their kids' names... their dog gets a treat when they bring him in to the store-- more people still appreciate good old-fashioned customer service, and while they may try the "new way" a time or two, I can't say I've lost a customer to the online game. Many have dabbled, and I don't begrudge somebody saving a few dollars on a piece of equipment - if I can match a price when someone asks, I will for their convenience, but sometimes I can't, and I'm honest about it. It hasn't driven anyone away yet.

In my humble little shop I added 7 new customers to my database yesterday, and I took the time to talk to each one, and begin forging what I consider to be a long-term relationship with them.

Dry goods drop-shipping may be cheaper too - but I can't tell you how many people have come to me to buy an Aqua C or a BakPak after wasting money on a SeaClone or a Prizm or a Visi Jet skimmer because it was cheap online - nobody was there to tell them that they get what they pay for - the cheap price may be attractive, but it's a waste when it ends up in the salvage box in the attic because it was underpowered for the application or it just plain didn't work. Most websites just offer wares for sale, not an experienced opinion about what makes one product different from another. We don't carry stuff that we wouldn't use ourselves, and our customers see that. By and large etailers cater to the bargain-hunter and carry anything and everything that will sell - not what is best value in quality for the hobbyist or his livestock. A conscientious store carries quality equipment in their limited floor space, and offers sound advice based on the staff's own experience. That's a far cry from an order-taker at a call center.

Drop-shipping has its place for existing hobbyists who have moved to remote areas that aren't serviced by a good LFS, or planners and budget shoppers who surf site after site to get the best possible price on a powerhead or protein skimmer - but the drop shippers can't do much for the hobbyist who had a pump suddenly fail and they need a replacement immediately (or parts to repair it today, or for someone to repair it today), or someone who needs vacation feeding and topoff service while they are out of town.

I tend to spend my livestock budget with wholesalers who don't pander to the drop-shippers or cherry pickers. Not just because of their policies on this, but in my experience, the smaller mom-and-pop type wholesalers offer better quality livestock and service than the big guys - just as smaller brick and mortar shops tend to offer better quality and service than the big box stores. All the decent livestock is not sucked up by the cherry-pickers, and just as a hobbyist cultivating a good relationship with his LFS is important, so it is important for a LFS to cultivate a good relationship with its suppliers. That's just good business, all around.

I do also think it's a slap in the face to the retailers who build a wholesaler's business and support them week after week, year after year, to allow drop shippers and others who don't have retail storefronts or meet minimum purchase requirements set forth to us retailers, to come in and effectively rob the loyal retail customer base of prime specimens - but business is business and I can't tell anyone else how to run theirs, as they can't tell me how to run mine. How a vendor does business has a big influence on whether I will choose to do business with them or not, and that's the only power I have in that regard. Mitch - the wholesalers that don't let cherry pickers in are out there - but you may have to change the way you do things a bit because the smaller wholesalers don't necessarily have everything under the sun, every single week. In my experience, anything my customers want (within reason) can be had, but sometimes patience is warranted. I've explained to people that I buy from certain vendors and avoid others for various reasons - and customers understand and appreciate my candor, and most will wait for what they want. For bread-and-butter stuff, I have no problems getting a variety of suitable hardy creatures each week to offer my customers.

Let the good Doctor gloat - sure in the big picture he'll get a few dollars here and there from a small percentage of all the hobbyists out there, over a very wide geographical area. Sell low and make it up in volume - but will he get their long term business? Perhaps a few, but most in my experience end up coming back to where they started - the good old brick and mortar LFS. As long as the LFS keep helping new hobbyists get into the hobby, some of those will try the online game, so that keeps the drop shippers in business, but keeping the hobbyist successful and interested in the long term is in the hands of the LFS for the most part, in my opinion. I guess it just means that our job is a little bit harder than putting our wares out there on a website for people to point and click at.

It's funny - when I first started frequenting hobbyist online message boards, I saw so many posts about how the LFS were ripping off customers, how it's so much cheaper online, yadda yadda. I still see the odd thread like that anymore, but more often than not, a thread like that nowadays gets responded to with a barrage of replies supportive of LFS. A few years ago it was a slamfest against LFS and extolled the virtues of online ordering - just my anecdotal experience but I think that the tide is turning in large part, back to the LFS.

It's been said over and over - the hobby can survive without the Internet drop-shipping business, but the Internet drop-shipping business can't survive without the LFS enabling hobbyists to get started. Ladies and gentlemen, WE the brick and mortars, have the upper hand here - we need to stop looking at it like the 'net folks are a threat. They aren't. They are a fly in the ointment, and a player in the game not to be dismissed, but at the end of the day, they need us to stay in existance because their very existance depends on it. Just in the last month alone I've had probably a dozen people come into the shop who either went to the department *mart store, or a big box pet store, bought a 10-gallon tank and 20 starter fish, and came to me asking why everything died... if the big corporate players were to assume management of all the aquatics stores (which is a ridiculous notion, IMO, it isn't going to happen), then who would these hapless people go to to fix their problems? While it's up to the hobbyist to educate himself, we all know that many take too many shortcuts (especially in the freshwater end of the hobby) and end up on a pretty steep learning curve. Without a decent LFS to pick up the pieces, they'd simply strip the tank and put it in the attic or basement and be done with it.

Just as Race is not going away anytime soon, neither am I. It would be silly to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because his business rides on the coattails of mine... it doesn't change what I do one iota. It doesn't change my attitude toward my job, it doesn't change my customer base - in fact I'd even venture to state that once a customer of mine has been burned by an etailer, he appreciates my store even more.

It's all in how you look at it. For the most part, I find that etailers make my shop look better :)

Jenn
 

aquaticvet1

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Hello Kalk ,
I only have time for one post today . Bricks and mortar will never become a thing of the past. That part of your question is not a concern to me .
Prediction to back up Mitch's last post . In the end direct shipping will be controlled be those currently in the retail segment---not by me. I personally know the intentions of some of the companies that he mentioned and he is correct . Yes, some of AMDA's current members and others are right now making plans to direct ship fish and corals and in a big way.
Kalk you are very correct in that the future will be complicated. Please do not forget the humane organizations in this country either . They are hard at work and taking a very close look at how fish and corals are treated once they enter this country . They are watching the wholesalers , our retail stores and Fedex on the shipping end . I think that I can be of value to the entire industry here . Veterinarians and the Veterinary profession have a powerful voice when it comes to educating these groups . At the last American Veterinary Medical Association meetings in Minnesota , which I attended , fish health topics were discussed . I am in a unique position to represent the entire industry at the professional animal health level and that may elevate the image of our hobby .
In conclusion , I believe that no one group or person can do it all . Reform overseas needs to be done and there are others better at it than me . In this country however ,I believe that I can play a very important and needed role . If we learn to work together ---and each focus on our areas of expertise---we will do well. If we continue to go nowhere then the road will be a very long one.

Thank you , Race
 

dizzy

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aquaticvet1":2k6w9u6a said:
Please do not forget the humane organizations in this country either . They are hard at work and taking a very close look at how fish and corals are treated once they enter this country . They are watching the wholesalers , our retail stores and Fedex on the shipping end . I think that I can be of value to the entire industry here . Veterinarians and the Veterinary profession have a powerful voice when it comes to educating these groups . At the last American Veterinary Medical Association meetings in Minnesota , which I attended , fish health topics were discussed . I am in a unique position to represent the entire industry at the professional animal health level and that may elevate the image of our hobby .

Thank you , Race

Race I'm not sure which Humane organizations you're talking about, but I sure hope it isn't PETA or these crooks http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=79504
I don't believe the public wants groups like these deciding how and what they can do. I actually saw a link to the Humane Society of United States on the APPMA web site under the Katrina Pet relief page. 8O Also I seem to recall hearing that the IRS is investigating PETA for income tax evasion.
Mitch
 

clarionreef

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Race ,
Wecome back!
You wrote;
My point to AMDA is how can they remain a viable entity when so many of the fish and corals are being moved through channels other than retail ?

Its true, Fish and corals are moved though other channels. So? Fish and corals are smuggled also. That is not endorsed either.
So you think AMDA should sell its stickers and validation to the internet entities? So....we thought differently and with better, reasoned arguments in a long nite, round table discussions.
Dude...not even MAC will allow you to become certified!
Yes, we returned Fosters and Smiths membership check as they did not meet the definition of a marinelife dealer as is our right to define.

Without sounding too arrogant , my plan is to leave this industry behind and focus on catering to the way it will emerge . I will do it while AMDA whines about the internet and grows even more powerless
Whining?
No, its a rejection of the dubious art of brokering paperwork from a wholesaler direct to the to the hobbyist....
Dealers who keep those wholesalers alive....understandably reject the methodology and certainly don't have to support it...thats all.

It makes it harder for real dealers to attain reward for doing good work. They have to collect and pay sales taxes as well as a myriad of local ones, they have to pay dozens more costs [ and rent ] to maintain the venue for hobbtists to come in a learn from.
Cherrypicking the easier part of the hobbyist experience...the sale of pretty fish...and leaving the disease control, filtration education, live food sales and face to face consultations to tax paying dealers is kinda chincey and cowardly, I think.

To try and exhalt shipping fish in the mail as catching the new wave of technology and working the trends of the future is unearned self flattery.
The future will always have its camp followers, scavengers and parasites as well.
There will always be slick websites that mimick worksites, that employ fewer people, pay fewer taxes and take the low road to profiteering off the harder, actual work of others.
The only argument for respectability I can see is that they point out [ingeniuously...] that the internet is here to stay and they're just hitching a ride on a rainbow...wow....how clever.
Steve
PS.
And another thing. The guy who tried to get you in on MAC to futher your public relations and validate you as a player in the responsible dealer genre...was fired. They all were in fact.
You should talk to them now so long as you keep the pro-MAC stuff up on the old self interview on the website.
 

bookfish

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This thread has ceased to have anything to do with advice for someone starting an on-line site.
If you wish to continue this debate, please start a new thread.
Thx-Jim
 
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