Deepthroat letter from the Philippines re; MAC

[clarionreef]

Rich,
They do need a website.
A plan they have....I'll forward our dialogue here to them.
Steve
Netting ordered rom Hawaii...here any day

 

[naesco]

Excellent thread!

If you remove the Philippines and Indonesia as a source of fish to the US now, allowing time for the reefs to heal and the island industry to reeform, isn't most of the problem solved?

 

[aquaticvet1]

Thank you Steve for your explanation . Righty I appreciate yours as well but I do have some questions for you.

Why is it that if I criticize anyone's methodology I am slinging mud but others are allowed to call me a parasite , dirty laundry, etc etc? No big deal just wondering why the playing field is not level ?
In case you have not noticed I do not start threads and generally only enter them when my name or company has been referred to three or more times .

My staff and I have spent considerable time with prominant figures in the industry and the consensus as to one problem has been the same. Am I not supposed to voice it or should I sweep it under the rug ?

This thread has probably run it's course . I will be around though.

Thanks, Race

 

[mark@mac]

naesco,

if you remove the philippines and indo as sources of aquarium fish it will significantly increase pressure on other reefs AND we will be shutting down those who are making and HAVE made the effort to change.....

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Steve for your explanation . Righty I appreciate yours as well but I do have some questions for you.

Why is it that if I criticize anyone's methodology I am slinging mud but others are allowed to call me a parasite , dirty laundry, etc etc? No big deal just wondering why the playing field is not level ?

We try to keep the playing field level - everyone who get addressed thinks they are being unfairly singled out . And, don't ignore the other people in this thread that I have also addressed in the same manner.

I haven't told anyone not to sling mud in this thread, I have expressed how I think the mud slinging drags the entire discussion down and weakens peoples points. If felt in one of your recent posts that you were slinging mud that was not really needed to support your points. I often like to address such things publicly in this forum because of the past history of the forum. Shoot me a pm if you would like to know specifically what I was referring to.

My staff and I have spent considerable time with prominant figures in the industry and the consensus as to one problem has been the same. Am I not supposed to voice it or should I sweep it under the rug ?

I am not sure what you are talking about in regards to consensus as to one problem, and I am unsure why you would think I think you shouldn't voice your opinions. Opinions are great and unless we share them nothing will change.

This thread has probably run it's course . I will be around though.

I don't think this thread has run its course. Its the first one in a long time that seems to be inching towards action items rather than criticism.

 

[dizzy]

The thread may not have run its course, but the letter that got it started sure has. I wonder why it stuck such a nerve with Reef Check? I am also interested in learning what the consensus is. I didn't realize this industry was capable of reaching a consensus on anything. Enlighten us Race.

 

[bookfish]

I will volunteer to produce a packet for Tonga.

 

[bookfish]

I will volunteer to produce a packet for Tonga. Unfortunately I can't do the stateside work. Rich would you consider this? I know you have the skills to run a coop project on the US side.

 

[Anonymous]

I will volunteer to produce a packet for Tonga. Unfortunately I can't do the stateside work. Rich would you consider this? I know you have the skills to run a coop project on the US side.

It depends on the details.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I would envision some of the details might involve:

approach e-mail to club BOD's presenting projects which could be sponsored

website creation/maintenance to provide visual documentation of $ used and milestones achieved, posting financials provided by project mgrs.

reporting to projects of eco-tourism requests by sponsor club members

I would expect that one might solicit sponsor clubs for things other than cash such as the items listed above.

Obviously these are only a few quick thoughts I had and I am not putting myself in any position to tell people what to do.

Thoughts anyone?-Jim

I am sure I could do that or get it done through the club. I am a little wary because I am still doing too much free work, but this one might be a good one to do instead of others. We'll talk more over kava in a couple of days!

 

[Anonymous]

Race,
AMDA was formed as a reform group...not an advertising gimmick for you and MAC .

AMDA would not be your monkey and accept that fish in the mail was a good thing for a marine dealer organization to support.
Returning your check was the start of a new kind of group that wasn't a rubber stamp for someone else commercial interest and a group that wouldn't sell out for the sake of inclusion and free hotel bills.
It was kept from being MACs rubber stamp and played a large role in redefining what the trades true interest is and what needs to happen in the reform of this trade.
The shallowest, stupidest and most treasonous thing AMDA could've done is sell out to you and MAC.
Now....that MAC is collapsing in disgrace, what seemed ill advised once may now appear to be courageous.
.
If you ever stand for something beyond self interest....you may one day understand what we did.
Now in Democratic tradition, we have elections every two years and the next administration can plead its case.
Steve
PS. I'm not even on the BOD anymore
.

I've got this old paper catalog on my desk right now from a mail order outfit... it cost me $5, it's dated 1994, and it's by some defunct (I think) outfit called Aquatic Specialists. Anyone ever heard of it's owners J.R. Shute and John Tullock? Someone should tell them that mail order is bad for the hobby, just in case they set up shop again.

 

[StevenPro]

naesco,

if you remove the philippines and indo as sources of aquarium fish it will significantly increase pressure on other reefs AND we will be shutting down those who are making and HAVE made the effort to change.....

Not to mention then that the reefs will become devalued and have even less pressure to protect them.

 

[dizzy]

Lee,
There is a major difference between bringing in fish and holding them for two weeks to get them eating and healthy, and dropshipping them sight unseen from a LA wholesaler. I was on the AMDA BOD that voted to send F&S check back. We were well aware that some of the members did etailing. Morgan Lidster of Inland Aquatics was one we discussed. We felt that the practice of dropshipping violated the standards of quarantine that John Tullock himself had advocated, so your example is weaker than you realize. We also felt that the way F&S was advertising was misleading the hobbyists. (Later modified due to Andy's efforts) I might add that this all happened after spawner's thread exploded onto the pages of rdo just prior to MO04. On the way back from MO I stopped by 104th st for a visit. I asked the guys at QM about F&S and they just dodged my questions. It's a shame because Chris and Bob are decent guys and their facility is clean and well run, but I just can't/won't buy from someone if I know they are stabbing retailers in the back. In truth most of the wholesalers engage in some business practices that I probably don't like. I realize I risk making some of them angry with me for some of my posts here, but I will continue to stick up for independent retailers no matter what the personal cost to my business. Nothing I ever do or say here is about promoting my business like some of the others do. I unselfishlessly support the continued existance of independent retailers because I believe the future of our hobby depends on them remaining strong and independent. I guess both AMDA and MAC have learned that it isn't easy to get a bunch of independent people who like doing things their own way, to join a group that trys to tell them how to run their business.

Race for the record Steve was not the ring leader in not wanting to renew your membership. You can blame me for that.
Mitch

 

[aquaticvet1]

Mitch ,
I do not blame anybody . AMDA has every right to decide the criteria for membership . I do think that times have changed because of peoples altered buying habits . The internet created that--- not Quality Marine , SDC , ERI , DR Imports and a dozen others .
From an industry standpoint it is foolish for you and others to ignore reality which is that the customer has changed and so must the industry .
As a Cataloger for 18 years I was very concerned when the internet and the Sock Puppet roared in . I had to adapt like everyone else or I was history . Mitch, it is the consumer driving the change not an internet site. Take a look around at other industries as well . Examples include pharmacy , music, travel , hotel bookings , car sales , etc. etc. . To think that is going away is pure ignorance .

I think that you and AMDA failed to recognize reality and that a unified group is better than an antiquated effort . Mitch-- 64 members should indicate something.

I hold no grudges but I do think that it is never too late to make changes.
AMDA should be overhauled to be representive of the way the industry is--not how you want it to be.

I blame Steve for being destructive to the hobby here at home . He has provided barrels of flammable material for domestic groups who oppose the hobby . That is not just my opinion as I have personally heard it from others including from groups that do not care for us.. Reefs.Org is scrutinized by many who seek to destroy us and a gloom , doom and disaster rhetoric approach does not provide a true picture of the positive virtues of the hobby . We should not ignore our shortcomings but neither should we suppress the positives .

I will stand up for and represent the hobbyist even if the rest of you refuse. We are tired of Steve implying that we are all reef rapists and parasites of a used to be wholesome industry. Reefs.org you have chosen the wrong "Poster Child" . This is not a High School debate forum but the real deal with a real public viewing. Kick me out if you like but I will not cower to your Golden Boy.


Thank you Mitch and as always I appreciate your perspective.
Race

 

[Anonymous]

For the record, Steve Robinson is not RDO's "poster child" nor our "representative." He is a businessman and a contributor to this forum just like each and every one of us. I wish he wouldn't take cheap shots based on heresay. I wish he wouldn't resort to name-calling and innuendo, but I wish that of a lot of posters around here.

If we stuck to the provable facts and respected each other's opinions, this place would get something done.

Please don't think you're being ganged up on, Race, or think that your posts aren't given equal weight as everyone else's around here. They are.

Peace,

Chip

 

[dizzy]

Race if this dropshipping game is so in vogue, then why have the wholesalers been so reluctant to talk about it? It all began as a dirty little backroom deal that no one was supposed to know about. I believe the guilty wholesalers feared that if they were found out retailers would boycott them. I do believe that many dealers in addition to myself, would rather use a wholesaler that didn't allow this practice. I firmly believe that approach could be a good marketing tool for a progressive wholesaler who wanted the lion's share of brick and mortar's business. Of course they would have to be competitive and also have a great selection.

Or another choice would be to open up dropshipping for all stores no matter how small. We could all run etail sites and the wholesalers could dropship for anyone that generated the sale. This might be a fair way to approach things. The other choice would be to just allow the wholesalers to run their own retail sites and compete with us for the same customers. To me the last option is not really much different than the wholesalers dropshipping for etailers like you, MD, or Jack's Aquarium. It might be that sites like yours are not really needed afterall. That's my opinion.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

I blame Steve for being destructive to the hobby here at home . He has provided barrels of flammable material for domestic groups who oppose the hobby . That is not just my opinion as I have personally heard it from others including from groups that do not care for us.

Without more detail, this is as much hearsay as an unsigned letter about others business practices.

Reefs.Org is scrutinized by many who seek to destroy us and a gloom , doom and disaster rhetoric approach does not provide a true picture of the positive virtues of the hobby . We should not ignore our shortcomings but neither should we suppress the positives .

Which positives do you mean? It would be great if you start threads about them! What better way to balance the scales?

I will stand up for and represent the hobbyist even if the rest of you refuse.

Who has refused to represent the hobbyist? I actually am a hobbyist (well, mostly! ).

We are tired of Steve implying that we are all reef rapists and parasites of a used to be wholesome industry.

While I often disagree with the way Steve chooses to expresse himself, I think this is an over generalization of the same type that Steve tends to make.

Reefs.org you have chosen the wrong "Poster Child" .

Reefs.org has chosen no 'poster child'. This is an open forum and just about anyone is welcome to post here. Some may think his is a poster child because he chooses to post so often while other choose to not post at all, but in reality he remains just another RDO member.

This is not a High School debate forum but the real deal with a real public viewing.

As long at the 'real public' stays quiet about industry issues, this forum is only partly any type of 'real deal'. If there is no dialogue, then there is only those that choose to post. RDO has been working hard that last year to get this forum to be more accessible/welcoming to non 'regulars' and I hope that your appearance and posting is the start of a trend.

Kick me out if you like but I will not cower to your Golden Boy.

I don't know where this is coming from. No one is going to, and no one has implied that you will be kicked out for anything that is not covered in the user agreement. In other words, you will not be penalized for having different opinions from other RDO posters.
Again, Steve is not a golden boy, and such accusations are empty rhetoric like that you have said you deplore.

Race, I am glad you are here posting. For this forum to really be 'something' we need more perspectives from more people in the industry. If you ever have an issue, please let me, or any of the Industry Forum moderators know about it so we can deal with it - our job is to help facilitate discussion.

Thanks again!

Rich

 

[clarionreef]

Race claims that there have been barrels of flammable material for enemies of the hobby;

I blame Steve for being destructive to the hobby here at home . He has provided barrels of flammable material for domestic groups who oppose the hobby

Really? Barrels? Is there so much inequity that exists?
Why have we not delt with these flammable issues more effectively?
We should not have so much flammable material on our property.
Thats illegal.
We should not let it accumalate. We should solve it, dispose of it and remain a less flammable place.
But as a fireman, I'd like to put out the fire...not protect it. And have offered constructive remedy and proposals for decades.
Steve

 

[aquaticvet1]

Thank you Rich.

I do have one question today but have to get back to my business at hand. This is for Mitch as well as other BOD of AMDA. Why is it that etailers such as Morgan Lister at Inland Aquatics and Rick Brenner at Jack's Aquarium (Pet Solutions) are still members of AMDA? Although I agree that they should be members of AMDA and have been for some time, how does their business models differ from Drs. Foster & Smith? Please understand that we have a retail store and coral farm as well as a catalog and an E commerce site.

Were you or Steve worried that I am such a powerful entity in this industry that I would take the spotlight? The fact of the matter is that with all of my resources and contacts I actually could have helped AMDA succeed in their endeavors. I am still willing but I see Steve and his cronies at AMDA as an obstacle to any unification in this industry.

And BTW AMDA lost our check and we had to stop payment on it, it was not returned. What’s up with that?

Race- willing to help create a new chapter in the industry.

 

[clarionreef]

We are tired of Steve implying that we are all reef rapists and parasites of a used to be wholesome industry. ???

You mean wholesome in pretty showrooms and doctors offices?
Surely you confuse our potential with the reality on the reefs where our activities have attracted a lot of attention.
In the first year of exposing the cyanide trade in the Philippines [ 1983] I spent the next one working purely on remedy and training programs.[ 1984 ]
These efforts were copied and gave birth to a barrelful of NGOs who rode them til the wheels came off....and still do.
These NGOs give fodder to an issue that doesnt exist?
MACs entire premise is destructive fishing in our trade. Were they misled by my barrels of misinformation? If so, they sustain the myth...daily.
You joined them, or tried to....remember? Why....? Did you believe in their premise that the trade was less then wholesome was in error?

They should've made all this go away by now...don't you think?
Or perhaps they thank me every payday for inventing a way to get paid ....posing as fixers of a trade that hardly needs it. :roll:
Steve