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spawner

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not sure if anyone has seen this yet. Just skimmed through it.

http://purl.fcla.edu/fcla/etd/UFE0007021

Abstract:

This study presents the analysis of preferences for selected fish attributes (including the use of an ecolabel) by avid marine aquarium hobbyists for two saltwater ornamental fish and socio-demographic and attitudinal characteristics. The fish attributes included price, source (wild or tank bred), length of post-sale survival guarantee, and whether the fish was ecolabelled as certified by the Marine Aquarium Councill (MAC). The fish were species commonly known to be harvested from areas with a reputation for ecosystem damage during collection (i.e., the maroon clownfish from the Philippines and the blue-faced angelfish from Indonesia). Two discrete choice experiments and the assessment of aquaria characteristics and respondents’ opinions, attitudes and demographics were implemented through an Internet-based questionnaire. Respondents were solicited during a week in February 2004 from several Internet bulletin boards and discussion lists to attract hobbyists that were most likely to be familiar with the MAC. Respondents represent a very homogeneous group, with above average levels of education, annual income, and concern about coral reefs and wild stocks protection. Half of them were not familiar with the MAC environmental certification program and a large majority preferred tank-cultured over any wild caught organism, including a certified one, in order to avoid harmful ecosystem effects associated with its capture.

Probit analyses revealed price to be only a secondary factor influencing purchase behavior. MAC certification was considered mainly as a weak substitute for competing attributes, such as an extended survival guarantee and tank culture, showing even negative effects on the likelihood to purchase. Only an increased knowledge of the MAC program, mainly at an intermediate level, and a strong association of the MAC ecolabel with effective conservation of reef habitats and wild stocks were likely to positively influence the likelihood of purchasing a MAC certified fish.

Focusing efforts on improving the credibility of the program, not only of coral reef protection but also sustainability of fish stocks, and efficient post-harvest activities (i.e., improved handling, holding and transportation) could be successful in improving preferences for a MAC ecolabel. The high level of involvement with large Internet bulletin boards and discussion lists, and the secondary role of price on purchase decisions of this hobbyist segment suggest an opportunity for increasing the effectiveness of future educational and promotional efforts by the MAC at relatively low cost.


andy
 
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Anonymous

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Gee, makes me wonder.. - If a voluntary CDT/inspection program were put in place (along with disclosure so we could have a fair amount of confidence in "the system") who knows.... - Maybe us (apparently no longer in the minority) concerned hobbyists would be willing to pay more for the fish that we want...

WOW! - THATS INCREDIBLE! - Whodda thunk it?


:roll:




Thanks for sharing Andy.
 

spawner

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It's a bit limited, I one week in Feb. on BB, would have like to seen a bunch of in store surveys. But customers always says they would pay more for a better fish and then the shop around for the cheapest prices.

A controled study would be nice: two fish in a shop, one labeled with all the data, looks great, but 20 bucks more, the other not labeled no data, seems great, but 20 bucks less. Then see what happens.
 
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Anonymous

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:lol: I responded to that. Talk about extremelly limitted in scope. Most internet reefers care, it's the 80% of the rest of the hobbyists that don't go online that should be polled ;)

It's like asking right wing republicans if they think the republicans are the right party for the USA.
 
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Anonymous

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GreshamH":1noqxq02 said:
:lol: I responded to that. Talk about extremelly limitted in scope. Most internet reefers care, it's the 80% of the rest of the hobbyists that don't go online that should be polled ;)

It's like asking right wing republicans if they think the republicans are the right party for the USA.
You've got to be kidding me.. - ??? - Seriously?? - 80% of retail customers don't go online?

I find that really hard to believe considering the many toothless wonders I've made housecalls on to fix their 'innernet'... - And that was 10 years ago. :?

I'd think it'd be more like 20% that don't go online, but who am I??

Do 80% of retail customers still rely on (usually bad) advice from LFS's on how to give just basic care to the animals they're buying?

If so, thats just plain sickening and makes me believe theres an even greater need for the majority to be better educated I guess.
 

spawner

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The limited scope is what I have issues with, I don't know why its not published yet. That maybe the reason. Regards, its nice to see someone do a study, maybe we will see better efforts in the near future.


That is a very interesting link, maybe someone should forward this study to him.
andy
 

clarionreef

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I think the poll is a lot like a girl asking a guy if ...
1] Is he a good guy and
2] Will respect carry on til dawn...
All guys lie...to women...thats a given.
And most reefers are guys.

Steve
 

PeterIMA

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"Only an increased knowledge of the MAC program, mainly at an intermediate level, and a strong association of the MAC ecolabel with effective conservation of reef habitats and wild stocks were likely to positively influence the likelihood of purchasing a MAC certified fish. "


I think what the survey says is that hobbyists would pay more for fish if they "know" that MAC's conservation efforts work and that the fish they purchased are "guaranteed" to have better survival. So far, the MAC has not demonstrated that MAC Certified fish are "better" either in terms of having an effective conservation program in place such as being caught sustainably with nets or that they have addressed other problems associated with collection and transport that can ensure that the fish being sold as MAC-Certified survive better. Hence, there is no reason for hobbyists to pay more for MAC-Certified fish because they have not been demonstrated to marine hobbyists to be a better product.
 

JennM

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I think it's a fair assessment that MOST hobbyists don't participate in online discussion forums. Of my entire client base, I only have ever seen a couple of dozen at best, on any of the forums I frequent.

You may have seen a lot of toothless wonders installing internet devices, but few of them are in online forums about their tanks - they are playing games, in chat rooms, or paying their bills online.

Unfortunately, in my experience, the vast majority of hobbyists don't know/don't care about conservation issues. You'd be surprised at how many people don't give a second thought about just *how* the fish come to be in our sell systems each week. We do our best to educate people, but if they don't care to absorb that or find out more for themselves, it's a waste of breath.

I think surveys done right in the LFS would yield much different results... price point is often the biggest deciding factor, followed by length of stay-alive-guarantee, and the rest is far down the list.

Heck most people don't want to invest in a good reference book or test kits... they can come to the LFS (or online) to sort out problems, and since most of us around here test for free or for a small fee, it's not "worth it" to them to invest in testing equipment. Heck one guy who bought his setup someplace else but has been coming to me for livestock and water tests, JUST purchased a hydrometer - he's had his setup for about 2 years and never even had one of those - relied on me to test his specific gravity :eek:

The majority of people who use these online BBs do educate themselves, but I think in the bigger picture, they are still a minority of hobbyists.

Jenn
 
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Anonymous

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90% of all 'hobbyists' don't even care about what their fish require-for most it's a matter of 'replace when dead'
 

naesco

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vitz":2titrmn6 said:
90% of all 'hobbyists' don't even care about what their fish require-for most it's a matter of 'replace when dead'

I think that is nonsense Vitz.
There is no doubt that customers come in to LFS and get sucked into buying a tank and then get sucked into buying fish that they are incapable of keeping or in fact anyone is capable of keeping.
I don't believe for one minute that hobbyists dont care what their fish require. I believe they are concerned about the welfare of the critters in their tanks.
However, I agree that many of them are ignorant about the use of cyanide to catch them and if they were aware they would be outraged.
 
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Anonymous

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naesco":3lto4fy9 said:
vitz":3lto4fy9 said:
90% of all 'hobbyists' don't even care about what their fish require-for most it's a matter of 'replace when dead'

I think that is nonsense Vitz.
There is no doubt that customers come in to LFS and get sucked into buying a tank and then get sucked into buying fish that they are incapable of keeping or in fact anyone is capable of keeping.
I don't believe for one minute that hobbyists dont care what their fish require. I believe they are concerned about the welfare of the critters in their tanks.
However, I agree that many of them are ignorant about the use of cyanide to catch them and if they were aware they would be outraged.

I disagree. 90% may be high though.
 

JennM

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naesco":p3wwnwcr said:
There is no doubt that customers come in to LFS and get sucked into buying a tank and then get sucked into buying fish that they are incapable of keeping or in fact anyone is capable of keeping.
I don't believe for one minute that hobbyists dont care what their fish require. I believe they are concerned about the welfare of the critters in their tanks.
However, I agree that many of them are ignorant about the use of cyanide to catch them and if they were aware they would be outraged.

Well which is it, Wayne?

They are either suckers incapable of making a responsible decision, or they care about their creatures - which one are you trying to impress?

How much time have you done on the retail floor to come to your conclusions?

While I may concur that 90% is an arbitrary and perhaps inflated number, there *are* people out there that fit Vitz' description, unfortunately. They usually don't end up becoming customers of mine... I have little tolerance for that.

You make it sound like all customers are "suckers" and all LFS are somewhere below used car salesmen on the food chain. Why can't you accept that anyone buying a pet is ultimately responsible for its care and upkeep. No LFS ever held a gun to a customer's head to force them to buy any tank or equipment, or any livestock for that matter. Rather, why not place the "blame" where it belongs? People who buy without knowing what they are doing are ultimately responsible. While a good LFS will take initiative to guide a customer to the right choices, it's not the responsibility of the LFS to assess who is capable of keeping what.

How would you feel if the car salesman wouldn't let you buy the Ferrari, because he was afraid you'd drive it too fast and get into an accident? You'd probably feel like your intelligence was being insulted and you'd take your business elsewhere. The hobby is no different, except we're dealing with living things. It's really not the sales person's place to decide whether hobbyist A is able to keep this or not.

Like I've said ad infinitum every time this stuff comes up - there's plenty I don't carry because I think they are "rental items". There's plenty I don't carry because of capture method, because of ethical reasons - I don't carry sharks because most people don't have the tank space for them. That's my *choice*. Doesn't mean I want to see those things outlawed (I do want to see better collection practices, however, and sustainable collection) but I don't want to be told what I can and cannot order and sell.

It's a shame that you have such a low opinion of hobbyists and LFS, Wayne. You're missing out on a lot.

Jenn
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks Jenn, I appreciate you taking the time to educate me.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this though.. - I mean, pretty much anyone who's visited this forum knows that theres at least a small segment of B&M shop owners here who really don't care for etailers. And that the jist of the issue (unless I'm mistaken) is that they're taking away paying customers while still leaving those customers to come to the B&M shops for free or cheap water testing, advice and sometimes a whole lot more that doesn't do their operation much (if any) financial good.

So... -- Are etailers really only getting a tiny (a % of the supposed 10-20% that DO go online) slice of the pie, or is there maybe more people checking into this online thing than some of you care to admit?


Some of you long-term B&M shop owners.. - Please, chime in... What sort of a long-term trend change in livestock sales have you seen since the internet and etailing came to the scene?

Thanks again,
Norm
 

JennM

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It's a good and valid question, Norm.

In my experience - and this is purely anecdotal, I've never taken a survey on it for real statistics, MOST customers still shop at the B&M. Some do both, some leach off the freebies (water testing, advice) and then go buy online. Some claim they've never bought anything from a LFS which I find hard to believe... since most etailers don't sell TANKS...(OK one could buy a used one to start I suppose...). Thankfully, it's my experience that the vast majority of shoppers still prefer individual service, even if they know they can get it cheaper and anonymously online. Lots of customers, especially older ones, don't fart around with the internet at all, or if they do, they don't use it to shop for much of anything. And let's not forget, plenty have been burned by bad etailers (not tarring everyone with the same brush - but we all know there are some con artists out there), so those who have learned the hard lessons stick with what they know and can see up close.

Many hobbyists are aware they can buy online, but choose not to. Some may even scope out what they want online, but buy from a B&M.

Furthermore, just because somebody buys discount products online, doesn't mean they participate in online bulletin boards to further educate themselves.

Also, I've seen plenty of garbage information on the bulletin boards - takes some common sense to weed through the information to pull up what's correct and what's nonsense. Just because it's on the Internet doesn't make it fact.

In my experience on the bulletin boards, there are 3 types of posters. There are those seeking information - no harm in that, but of the people that respond to questions, there are 2 types of posters... those who have done it themselves and relay their own experiences ... "this worked for me", "that failed miserably when I tried it" - those are the really great resources to tap into, and then there are the "parrots"... regurgitators of (mis)information that they've heard or read, and it can become like a game of "telephone" where each time the stuff is repeated, it gets adulterated to the point where it becomes total malarky.

I got into a discussion a while back with some newb telling another newb that you can't keep an anemone under any less than 5 watts per gallon. I respectfully disagreed, stating that it's about intensity and spectrum of light, not just "watts per gallon". He disputed me further... well tell that to the E. quadricolor I've maintained in a client's 52-gallon tank under 130 watts of PC for the last 5 years... and it has split 4 ways! (and each daughter is HUGE!). Tell it to my BTA that was cloned off a client's under 220 W VHO in a 75 g tank, and now my clone is under 350 watts in a 120... he shut up then... but my point is, this guy had no clue - he just heard it someplace and repeated it, without any firsthand experience, and the person he was "educating" would probably take it at face value and then repeat it someplace else. People like that are dangerous online because they just spew information with no basis to know if it's fact or fiction. And those same people that spew crap like that all day are usually the first to accuse their LFS for duping them into buying a dragonet or a flame scallop :roll: They're the last to take responsibility for their own choices.... but I digress...

Comparing etail to retail is comparing apples and bowling balls. A brick and mortar typically has most or all of its customers localized to within a short radius of their location. Etail has the whole country (and beyond?) to find customers from. If a B&M has 500 customers, you can bet that 90% of them are within about a 50 mile radius (or closer), if an etailer has 500 customers, they could be spread out over thousands of miles. The odds of an etailer assuming more than a few here and there from any LFS ' local territory is slim.

Trying to steer this back to the topic at hand, I think polling online hobbyists and not a good cross-section of the overall hobbyist population, may have skewed the results.

Jenn
 
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Anonymous

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Yeah, I agree that placing a poll online is only going to capture the online-venturing segment and thus skew the results. I'll take that as a given..

Its the number of customers that actually go online that all of us are left wondering about now. :?


If anyone knows of / hears about a good survey on this being conducted, I'd appreciate a nudge and a heads up..
 

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