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PeterIMA

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Righty, I agree with Mitch and I am a marine scientist with a Ph.D. I should note that Dr. Andrew Bruckner (with NOAA/NMFS and a member of the U.S. Coral Reef Task Force) made requests to ReefCheck for information on the survey methods (there are more than one described in the MAQTRAC manual) they use in the Philippines. Dr. Gregor Hodgson has not supplied the information, so there is no way to judge the quality of the surveys being conducted by ReefCheck "volunteers". In any event they are foreigners who are out of touch with the local fishermen and the Philippine government agencies (like BFAR and municipal officials) that are mandated by law to manage the fisheries and the coral reefs.

Ferdinand Cruz has worked with both Collectors Associations and with federal and muncipal officials. I believe that the collectors know the fish better than the ReefCheck volunteers. The collectors can do the underwater surveys with proper scientific supervision by biologists from the University of the Philippines and/or BFAR. This is also more cost-effective. The resource assessements by local fishers should be tied to municipal regulations (like licensing the collectors and local fishers).

The East Asian Seas and Terrestial Intitiatives (EASTI) is creating a Coastal Resources Management Plan (CRMP) in collaboration with the municipality of Legaspi City (in the Province of Bicol). The local fishers and collectors are being trained in better collection and handling, and will participate in the resource surveys. They are developing more concern for protection and conservation of marine resources by being involved in the process of creation of the CRMP.

Peter Rubec
 

sdcfish

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What would be a move in the right direct would be some constructive critisisms and suggestions.

Steve,

If you can just make suggestions instead of harmful accusations that mostly are not true.....but I did find something interesting reading your posts.

You mentioned "indicator" species for the aquarium trade and that Reefcheck might not be looking for the fish that are handled by the aquarium trade. I think that's a great point, and it should be looked at. I did work with Reefcheck to discuss popular species, but I think another look would be a good idea.

What we all have to remember is that Reefcheck has been training and doing study's on reefs for years. There is a mixture of staff and volunteers that can scientifically collect data. I know it's easy to poke fun at, but it's all business and everyone knows the importance of accurate information.

Let's all try to give the groups some time to re-group and let the process take hold. Considering the recent findings of what has been transpriing from within the groups, I would like us to be a bit more constructive and positive moving forward.

I have had some conversations that could bring MAC and Reefcheck to this board and participate in a constructive manner and be more personable with us all. I am hoping that this will happen very soon, but we all have to remember that if all we will do is attack and make accusations, their willingness to contribute could be jeopardized.

This is a real chance for all of us to discuss ideas and suggestions with the groups we are all talking and so concerned about, so let's not blow this opportunity.

Best regards,

Eric
 
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PeterIMA":2pmi89c2 said:
Righty, I agree with Mitch and I am a marine scientists with a Ph.D.

Hey Peter,
What do you agree with Mitch about? Collectors doing surveys? That will prolly work (note I said 'not sure' not 'can't' :D ). I do think that given the fabrications that seem rampant in this industry it would behoove us all to look at peoples claims a little askance.

Anyway, I am still wondering what collection in PI has to do with surveys in Cayman. :D Is reefcheck also doing 'tourist' surveys in PI? Is collection even legal in Cayman?

I am also glad to hear about EASTI and CRMP. Sound like good needed stuff.
 
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sdcfish":26bmjqh7 said:
Considering the recent findings of what has been transpriing from within the groups, I would like us to be a bit more constructive and positive moving forward.

I have had some conversations that could bring MAC and Reefcheck to this board and participate in a constructive manner and be more personable with us all. I am hoping that this will happen very soon, but we all have to remember that if all we will do is attack and make accusations, their willingness to contribute could be jeopardized.

This is a real chance for all of us to discuss ideas and suggestions with the groups we are all talking and so concerned about, so let's not blow this opportunity.

Thanks Eric! I am out of the country right now, but when I get home next week I am looking at ways to change the tone of this forum, even if that means losing the participation of some current posters. Thanks for your efforts and let me know if you can think of anything I can do to help.

RR
 

clarionreef

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As Dr Rubec said;
"In any event they are foreigners who are out of touch with the local fishermen and the Philippine government agencies (like BFAR and municipal officials) that are mandated by law to manage the fisheries and the coral reefs. "

My interest is in changing fisherman to accept sustainable collecting strategies...not counting some of the fishes on the reef as if that were the primary directive.
The digression to the Reefcheck part of the mission is unfortunate because its just not that important compared to converting cyanide fisherman.
With a newer, greener , non experienced team, MAC will not get this training job done and Reefcheck is irrelevant to getting it done as its simply not what they do.
So....the mission has indeed stalled.
Steve


Steve
 

dizzy

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Righty I just think that Fox guarding the henhouse statement might be misinterpreted by some of fishers. Someone from another culture might be offended by it. If there is to be any type of meaningful conservation efforts, it will absolutely critical to have the help and support of the people that live in the effected areas. At least one of the messages that is coming out of the Philippines is that the collectors feel like they have been mislead and not dealt with fairly. Winning back trust the second time is going to be much harder than gaining it initially. We should be very careful choosing our words because it might be next to impossible for someone with English as a second language to interpret the tone of the posts. I can't always tell the tone of the posters here and I'm English only. I doubt you can always tell either.
Mitch
PS
How do we know they don't view the NGOs as foxes trying to put a tax on the eggs coming out of "their" henhouse.
 

PeterIMA

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There appears to be a conflict between ReefCheck's goals and those of the MAC. It looks to me (reading between the lines with recent postings) that ReefCheck has found that most reefs in the Philippines (and possibly also Indonesia) are heavily degraded (see the newspaper posting that intefviewed Dr. Hodgson). Hence, they can not sustain more aquarium fish collectors. I suspect that ReefCheck wants to close areas from fishing and MAF collecting and create Marine Protected Areas (as stated in the newspaper article). This would reduce the areas available for collecting and is anti-fisher/collector. MAC on the other hand is committed to expanding the number of collectors. Recent reports indicate they have been training fishers who were not previously cyanide collectors. This puts more pressure on the reefs.

It looks to me like the recent firings and resignations of MAC staff reflect a fundamental shift on the part of the MAC due to pressure from ReefCheck. Holthus appears to have accepted that training more collectors is detrimental to protection and conservation of the coral reefs. ReefCheck now appears to be in the driver seat forcing change (but we don't know enough about what is actually going on).

If this is the case, then the trade needs to change its focus from high volumes of cheap cyanide-caught fishes to fewer higher quality net-caught fish that live to be sold (instead of dying like the cyanide-caught fishes). This also requires implementation of better collecting, holding, and shipping practices. I still don't see much action by MAC for trainings in this direction (although Mark expressed concerns that more action is needed).

Hopefully, the MAC will restructure itself to do things right. This means working with reformists (of which there are now several groups) to do things right. Some of the reformists need to come from the trade, others have experience base on their past associations with NGOs like the IMA and Haribon.

Before this can happen, there needs to be changes in leadership and a willingness to work with other organizations.

Peter Rubec
 

clarionreef

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Or...
I think the trade should just fund net training for a change.
As everyone knows who works with Filipino net collectors abroad....there is scarcely a need for a new magic as the nets work just fine.
In working abroad, the 70 or so Filipino netsman use nets, only nets and catch too many fish.
The problem has been solved whereever business folks employ netsman to do the job. Hiring netsman to just work....teaches other fisherman what is possible and its so very cheap. Pays for itself in product in fact. In this way...net training is free.

The Filipino netsman deployed around the world today are growing the skills and imparting them as they go. When they return home....the growth and training of family and friends continues still.
This phenomena alone has now eclipsed the paid, foreign groups on the job and just keeps going on its own momentum.
This chain reaction is a purely business inspired one and the envy of NGOs everywhere.
Steve
 
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Steve,

Won't the cyanide cartel come and 'break the legs' (or refuse to purchase the catch) of the reformed fisherfolk because they aren't buying the junk from them?

I remember something being said about this a while back...
 

PeterIMA

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Sci-Guy,

Are you implying that net-caught fish are junk? What about cyanide-caught fish are they not junk? All fishes need to be handled better to eliminate problems from ammonia, damage from rough handling, fed to eliminate paper-thin fishes that die in retailer's tanks from starvation etc. Exporters need to upgrade their filtration systems. The collectors need to be paid more for better collection and handling practices that create better quality MAF.

Peter
 

clarionreef

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Lees funny,
The junk is cyanide Peter.
The cartel used to be a lot nastier...its true.
They used to threaten to kill us in fact for net training and said so in writing. These are the little things that contribute somewhat to ones attitude later. The ones who acted like this are all dead now though.
Today the operations tend to be run by the sons and they are changing the way business is done....slowly.
They can switch anytime they choose, buy nets and employ good net fisherman to work with their own guys.
But , they enjoy the reprieve they get from the American groups taking all the heat and letting them off the hook. They are in no hurry and BFAR still takes it easy on em...so far.
Steve
 

PeterIMA

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Steve, I agree. It is tragic that BFAR and other government officials (in PI and Indo) have done so little to enforce their laws against the use of cyanide. The cyanide cartels (you know who I mean) have operated with impunity (they are the foxes in the MAC henhouse). A few well chosen raids of export facilities and half-way houses could shut down the cyanide trade overnight. Some of the guilty parties are also involved with the live and dead food fish trades. It is not just related to the live MAF trade.

The MAC probably should be eliminated because of the cover it has provided to both the live MAF and food fish trades. The allegations of financial impropriety need to be investigated. Lets get rid of the "Three Kings", who think they can operate without delivering the goods promised under MAMTI.

Peter
 
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PeterIMA":2e3nclx1 said:
Sci-Guy,

Are you implying that net-caught fish are junk? What about cyanide-caught fish are they not junk? All fishes need to be handled better to eliminate problems from ammonia, damage from rough handling, fed to eliminate paper-thin fishes that die in retailer's tanks from starvation etc. Exporters need to upgrade their filtration systems. The collectors need to be paid more for better collection and handling practices that create better quality MAF.

Peter

Steve was correct with his clarification; the junk I was referring to was cyanide. I'd like to think that I'd never refer to a living thing as 'junk'.

I agree that improvement in collection, handling, and shipping are all laudable things.

-Lee
 
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cortez marine":fxvf55ow said:
Lees funny,
The junk is cyanide Peter.
The cartel used to be a lot nastier...its true.
They used to threaten to kill us in fact for net training and said so in writing. These are the little things that contribute somewhat to ones attitude later. The ones who acted like this are all dead now though.
Today the operations tend to be run by the sons and they are changing the way business is done....slowly.
They can switch anytime they choose, buy nets and employ good net fisherman to work with their own guys.
But , they enjoy the reprieve they get from the American groups taking all the heat and letting them off the hook. They are in no hurry and BFAR still takes it easy on em...so far.
Steve

Good to hear that at least some of the violence that was favoring the status quo of cyanide use is deminishing.
 

PeterIMA

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SciGuy, I only have one black ribbon. Steve has come too close to death several times to discuss publicly. But, I can confirm that attempts were made to kill him. Today, it could still happen.

Peter
 

Jaime Baquero

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How exporters in the Philippines would react to the last posts from Peter and S. R? I do not think is the way to find solutions to the problems.
 

clarionreef

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Jaime,
The exporters are feelin fine.
They are well represented now over here and are relaxed.

Nothing like before when the woke up to find the newspapers saying things like Cyanide Cartel Exposed and Big Time Cyanide Ring Revealed!
Back then, we would have press conferences in the Philippine Fishery and Development Authorities offices and the Director, Sarmiento would endorse the press releases.
He was the one the exporters feared the most...until he got called off the attack by then Minister Mitra.
The govt. made another strong stand in the fight of BFAR director Morales. He likewise got pulled back and even threatened and sued.

The anxiety level among them has since dropped considerably .
Thier biggest headaches now stem from different municipalities banning or cutailing the trade in adjacent waters.
When you ask why the government has been so lax, letting the exporters get away with so much...these are events to consider.
If you defend the exporters and then chastise the government....its confusing.
They fear no one anymore......and as a result have gone back to normal business.
Steve
 
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Jaime Baquero":12eju2vc said:
Steve,

This is not constructive dialogue.

Seems to me that you asked, Jaime:

How exporters in the Philippines would react to the last posts from Peter and S. R? I do not think is the way to find solutions to the problems.
 
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