EASTI HatcheryGrowout

[Anonymous]

I agree with both Jaime and Wayne. The problem is the lack of law enforcement using CDT results. I believe that Vietnam and Malaysia want to implement CDT. The IMA is working with these two countries to assist them with implementation of a CDT under a contract from the NOAA/NMFS Coral Reef Conservation Program.

The situation in the Philippines is not clear. Now that the MAC no longer has a Filipino country coordinator who is close to the BFAR director, there is some hope that BFAR may reestablish the CDT network. My contacts with the BFAR Director, Malcolm Sarmiento (several years ago) indicated he would welcome financial and technical assistance pertaining to implementation of CDT. The MAC had their experts (Dr. Renneberg from Hong Kong, and scientists from Merck). But they never came up with a reliable alternative test. I believe there is hope that the Philippines and Indonesia will take action to enforce their laws against cyanide fishing and that a CDT can be implemented to assist with law enforcement.

Peter

Peter,

Hasn't the problem right along been due to the difficulty of distinguishing between cyanide exposure from mining runoff/industrial releases and cyanide exposure due to collection practices?

If one can not distinguish between fish exposure due to pollution and exposure due to collecting technique aren't CDTs only of limited value?

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

All,

I posed a question here a while ago and got no response... :?

IMHO there needs to be an alternernative to a CDT. One that doesn't require the valuable fish to be sacrificed..... My idea is to create an "observer" system similar to that the tuna fishery uses. It would consist of university/school students/staff and community members who would "verify" that the fishers are not using cyanide.

I know there will be issues with this, and it would require a system of checks and balances; but I feel it could be a very useful tool in eradicating destructive fishing practices.

Any thoughts from anyone????

Mark

Mark,

Neat idea, except it would be too expensive to implement for the aquarium industry, IMO. For instance, on cod fishing boats there is one observer and tons upon tons of saleable product. The labor cost of the observer is minimal when related to the value of the product observed. The labor cost of having an observer watch two divers collect aquarium fish for the day would be a significant cost when related to the value of the product observed.

I hope this makes sense. Words are eluding me today.

-Lee

P.S. Have you thought through whether the market could bear the addtional costs of having observers go out with collectors?

Lee, IIRC Mark had suggested in one of his posts, to use college students.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, but I can't imagine a perpetual source of college students lining up to do this for free.

 

[Anonymous]

Depends on what you offer them Heck, if you offerred students from my local U (UCSC) a certain BC export mentioned in another thread, they'd line up in droves :lol: Maybe that's the area of input for Wayne?

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:

Seriously, think of the logistics... Don't the fisherfolk live off the beaten track? Wouldn't an observer almost need to live with the fisherfolk? Don't the collectors try to keep some of their collection locations secret? How many observers, how many boats are we talking about? Do the collectors even have boat space to take the observers out with them?

 

[clarionreef]

college students?
Thats as bad as urban greenies!
And just how pray tell do these oceanic, lighter skinned, lightweights survive real commercial fish collecting activity?
By their very presence they add weight to the boat, alter the activity, scare the fish, force closer to home trips, shorter trips, more gasoline, more drag on the collectors energy with constant..."whats this, whats that...why don't you do this" etc. etc. etc.
There is nothing more irritating and burdensom for comercial fish collectors in small, delicately balanced boats then having a tourist venue forced on them and the decreasing catches that it insures.
If the guys are clean, one can tell in one trip if one is able to detect what they are alledgedly able to.
If the guys have the talent and the tools to do the job right, the need to backslide wanes.
If all this is missing, the backsliding is for certain.
The ones in question are the trainers. If they are bad...all this law enforcement, CDT stuff and monitoring seem neccessary.
If the training takes, the rest of this stuff becomes a waste of time.
Imagine all these notions run in most countries. The poor monitors and testers will be bored and have nothing to do....as collecting with nets is normal everywhere the trade and its commensal NGOS partners do not feed off the cyanide issue and keep it going.


Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Steve.

 

[Anonymous]

Yah think I didn't know that was coming :lol: My post was kinda like a shot across the bow for Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Lee, I have not seen any data that indicates that cyanide from mining runoff is a problem in the Philippines.. But, I assume that you are correct and that it is a problem. The bulk of the cyanide imported each year about 6,000 tonnes is used for mining purposes. However, it is probably geographically localized near the effluents from gold mining and/or copper mining operations. It does merit investigation. I doubt that aquarium fishes come from the locations of the mines.

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Having suffered monitors in the boat too many times let me say that they were the ones that always needed monitoring.
From the head of investigative agencies in Mexico to the ladies they sent us to monitor Philippine net training ...the only thing that got monitored were these unsteady boat people.
They vomited all over the place, they couldn't swim worth a damn so they could see anything hardly, they couldn't enter he boat without assistance and they bogged us down with weight and endless nonsense.
The most worthwhile time was when this college chick was following a diver in 6 feet of water catching some 3 stripe damsels and 3 other guys were following her.
Monitors that are 'free' and on college credit become the center of attention ..especially if they are nice helpless young women and what ever the original purpose was...is lost.
Out of 10 women and 20 guys, I have seen 4 guys who could swim and hang in the boat and the sun all day and one woman. [ the esteemed biologa Rocio Pina Espallargas of the Instituto National Pesquerias] Mexico City. She could truly monitor and was worth monitoring herself.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Are there two Rocios Steve, or she the same one I know of?

 

[clarionreef]

She is in fact.
The best monitor I've seen. 8O
Competent as well.
Steve

 

[mark@mac]

Guys,

Think outside the styro! Firstly I said this would be similar to the observer systems used elsewhere, not identical. Of course there could not be "tourists" (observers) on the small bancas; and of course they could not be ALL or even MOSTLY "lighter skinned lightwieghts"..... I'm thinking of utilizing the hundreds of marine bio students already in the Phils along with some light skinned foriegn exchange students...

And.... It would not only be for MAF as that is NOT where the majority of cyanide is being used.... This plan also includes LRFF (live reef food fish) as well.... just an example.... fishers that couldn't accomodate a "tourist" on board would be required to check out before fishing, and check in after. Regularly show thier net collecting equipment and be subject to search for cyanide on board..... And as STeve says, it's MOST important that the trainers be of high caliber to begin with... This would alleviate much of the problem.... As fishers become more proficient at net collecting, and more trustworthy not to use cyanide, they would "require" less monitoring... so, the observers could focus more time on other collectors in other areas.

I have already discussed this with some LRFF fish brokers (who are currently using cyanide) as well as some Phils LGU... They are interested.
It would really involve the community more in managing their own resources. Also, a major part of this plan includes marine education for the entire community to break the cycle of ignorance...

Of course this is much simplified here, AND, it would not be easy... But, it is IMHO, a viable alternative, or supplement to CDT.....

Thanks for all the input and constructive critique all.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

How hard would it be to stash cyanide gear? Other than sounds great, Mark! But you already know that. :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Mark,
Some areas have a nicer population of aquarium fishers then others.
The sweetest dispositions are in the Visayas. Wouldn't you agree?
Especially among the Buholanos.
However, there are plenty of other regions that would not take so well to monitoring as these "prepped" and already broken in areas.
A "ride-along" program works best with innocents and yet could hardly take place with the hardened law breaking crowd.
"Policing the don't need policing collectors" could be the name of the project.
Steve

 

[mark@mac]

Steve,

Of the areas I've worked in: Visayas, Palawan and Polilio Islands; all were very nice and hospitable to me. And I'm sure if thier livelihoods are affected, even the "not so nice fishers" may be willing to work with an industry that DEMANDS "verified" net-caught fish......

Do you have any ideas as to HOW we can certify, verify or otherwise guarantee the industry cyanide free fish? Other than the ever-present "promise" that they're "net-caught"???? :lol:

Thanks again for the input.

Mark

 

[mark@mac]

Lee,

Of course cyanide "could" be stashed and used, but the system would require using nets... It is quite easy to see if nets are being used and maintained..... I think it would be more work to create the facade of using nets while actually using cyanide than to simply use the nets in the first place... Cheating will ALWAYS be a concern, but once again, as Steve pointed out, if the trainers are good, the lessons will stick much better..... It is also my experience that once the communities and fishers learn about the importance of a healthy reef habitat, most of them become much more concerned about damaging it...... Awareness and edcucation is a major factor here.....

Cheers,

mark

 

[Anonymous]

Mark,

All good points.

However, are there some lucrative species that are difficult to collect without the use of cyanide? I could imagine catching many of the "easier" fish with nets because cyanide is expensive; and still collecting high dollar difficult to capture fish with juice. Just the same, any reduction in cyanide use is good for the environment and laudable.

Perhaps this isn't an issue, it just popped into my mind.

-Lee

 

[WayneSallee]

Naturally you would want to start with the better communities, and then the hardened communities would soften to it when they see how much better the other communities have it by using nets. Also spreading efforts out to wide dilutes the resources for helping, so working a little at a time to win small areas at a time would be most effective. I think.

And also as has been mentioned, when they see themselves as protecting their area, that adds value to the agenda.

Also it would be a learning experience for both sides. So after learning on the easyer ones, it will go easyer with the harder ones.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
[email protected]

 

[clarionreef]

How can you be sure the fish are Kosher pickle?
Ist...who cares?
There have been clean...really clean villages that no one had supported.
There have been a few hundred divers go straight that never saw a penny more reward.
There have been netcaught dealers go under and netcaught divers who were hooked on nets but with no net supply....even though reform groups squandered what has added up to millions of dollars.
The main question is how can you trust the so-called reformers not to steal, embezzle, squander and waste all the money in front of a more honest audience of Filipino fish collectors that just want to go straight and have a little supply of netting.
The trust issues are more with the foreigners then with the locals.
The best talent in the Philippines is not working in the Philippines because the foreign reformers wouldn't hire them or offered them paltry wages while they kept the huge majority of the budgets for themselves.
Cheating, dishonesty, fraud, backsliding, chicanery, fudging data, fixing results......we have met the enemy and it was us.
We have been the bad guys in this.
If we must have a CDT we also need field audits and performance audits on the EGO groups and follow up investigations for those that won the money based on loan fraud ,exagerrating their credentials, embellishing their experience and falsifying their intentions.
Check the calender people. What year is this now?
How many years has the enlightened teaching from abroad been going on?

I don't believe that dogs, children or fisherfolk are that bad. I do believe that many teachers however cannot teach.
Steve