huh, why won't MAC ask this here?

[clarionreef]

Jaime,
MAC doesn't live here anymore?
Mark was just with them for a year. Do you discount his regular testimony?
John brandt was here for 2 years. He scored few points for MAC and like all their other early, knee jerk supporters has faded away....not only in contributions here but to the cause as a whole.
The turnover in that firm is serious and what talent accumalates disappears in internal, interncine politics far worse then anything seen here.
Steve
PS. I haven't been "tattled on" so much since the 3 grade.

 

[mark@mac]

Steve,

FYI
I worked for MAC for almost 2 1/2 years after several years of promoting MAC and becoming a MAC Certified retailer.....

I resent your referring to John B. and I as a "knee jerk supporters".... This is stuff we all have thought long and hard about. I do agree however, there are certain individuals who have inhibited and damaged the progress of the organization; but I don't believe John B. or myself fall into that category.

I still believe the MAC goals and mission are critical to the survival of this industry, the coastal fishers and the reefs themselves... I believe you have stated this in the past as well....

peace,

Mark

 

[clarionreef]

Mark...
You misunderstand me.
I did not infer that you are in the same category as John.
As one of the only MAC folks to stay with the cause when finishing with MAC...you are an anomalie.
Of course you are not allowed to speak freely though and that hampers our understandings of things that led to the sacking of nearly the whole staff.
You wrote something vital here;
"I still believe the MAC goals and mission are critical to the survival of this industry, the coastal fishers and the reefs themselves... I believe you have stated this in the past as well."
MARK!
Pardon me for not confusing the mission with the missionary.
The worth of the policy is in its implementation...not in its rhetoric. so let me explain it another way;
Would you say that if justice is good then all lawyers are good?
If saving people is good therefore all doctors are good.
Saving coral reefs is good...therefore all groups that work with the subject matter are good???
From the very beginning I have kept my eye on the ball here and it has often led to misunderstanding.
Not being new to the cause....I can hardly mistake the need for it with just anyone running it.
You yourself found that working within this particular group was difficult...and now impossible.
Why is that not critical to the question of their continued role?
They play with our lives and livlihoods and mismanage it all in the extreme.
IF THATS RELEVANT...THEN THEY ARE RELEVANT AND THEIR COMFORT WITH CHRONIC FAILURE SQUANDERS THESE YEARS THAT WE ARE UNDER THE MICROSCOPE OF WOULD BE REGULATORS.
If there is something GONE TERRIBLY WRONG in the alledged REFORM spokeman of our trade...then we should be more vocal...not less.
Steve

 

[morepunkthanewe]

As I stated previously I would prefer not to get dragged down into the mud pit that so easily forms in this forum.. however...to address Steve's (Cortez Marine) remarks to me

Colin,
Mac has claimed to have trained hundreds of collectors in Bali already using local talent...in quarterly report after quarterly report.
You just confirmed that to be false and I thank you.
Bringing in Ding Dong from the Philippines should make no sense but since the Seribu islands are well stocked with cyanide fisherman despite MACs multi year presence there makes it clearer.
The Les village has dozens of good net catchers and several good trainers. But...they will not work with MAC anymore on account of past, chronic failure.
Welcome to the forum. Give our best to Gayatri.
Steve
PS.
Colin...you are the next... disgruntled ex MAC employee. They all are.
You'll be joining us by next year.

First let me address the issue of bringing Ding Dong from the Phillipines to Indo from my perspective. Ding Dong has been a contracted employee and trainer for MAC in the past. His training by MAC is an investment and invaluable. It shows an important long term commitment on the behalf of MAC to stick with these collectors for the long term, not just show up throw some nets at the poor starving brown people, and expect change to occur. MAC Indo keeps on contract the equivalent of Ding Dong here in Bali. His name is Made (ma-day), and he comes from the village that you speak of, Les. He is a very friendly and knowledgeable person, and of equal value as Ding Dong to MAC's goals here. Made was working along Ding Dong and the other MAC staff the whole time that training was taking place. MAC places a high level of commitment and importance to maintaining these important relationships to the fisherment themselves. Earning the trust and understanding of the fisherman is not something that happens overnight and now after several long years, I believe that we are finally really starting to see material gains from these projects. Just because you don't see MAC stickers placed all over the fish you are buying or importing doesn't imply that they were necessarily collected with cyanide as I'm sure you know. These newly trained fisherman are taking what they have learned from these regular workshops and applying at least some of it to their daily livelihoods, which then filters through the chain of custody until your fishtank. MAC still has a looong ways ahead of it before MAC certified fishermen are linked to MAC certified suppliers are linked to MAC certified exporters are linked to MAC certified importers are linked to MAC certified wholesalers are linked to MAC certified retailers are linked to informed responsible conumers. But these are real steps in the right direction; if MAC were to *poof* into nonexistance, their legacy would still be left here, and we as a hobby would be better off. That is of course only my opinion based on my own observations. I have only been here 10 days, so it is indeed to early to know whether I will become disgruntled by beauracratic hogwash, however, I can tell you that I have been given nearly total freedom to make recommendations and forge my own path. I don't have anyone breathing down my neck making sure that I am working "by the MAC book". I appreciate this, and most employees of any organization are rarely granted such free will. If anything I am very very hopeful of MAC's future and would be enthusiatic about taking what I have learned from an actively improving (my opinion) region, to another place that is in need of help (Vietnam for instance). Just as anyone dealing with live fish should place economic value on investing capital for returns on better quality livestock (less death = more $$$), I think that MAC is at least currently nurturing their staff (Ding Dong for instance), spreading the wealth so to speak, such that greater gains to MAC will occur in the long run.

Based on some people's comments that I have read here and elsewhere, I can't help but interpret some of the more radical opinions that MAC's presence in the Indo-Pacific has actually made cyanide and other destructive practices more commonplace? I would prefer not to have these responses be the new direction this thread continues to mutate towards, but I would be interested in hearing your own personal views on this subject via a personal message, the start of a different thread, or guidance towards old threads that perhaps give me a history of the "I HATE MAC" coalition.

I will be happy to report what I witness in Seribu when I return on Sept. 13th. I have been taking plenty of pictures this whole time, and I intend to show you all what I am seeing. Pictoral proof seems to be lacking to demonstrate that in fact MAC isn't just eating up grant money and soaking up sunshine in paradise. I have some great pictures that I think you will all enjoy. I keep bandying about the idea of a blog, off these forums so I can more easily post pictures and log my experiences. Maybe someone can suggest to me via PM a good website for such a thing. At the same time I don't want all my time in the office be spent on extra-curricular (but important in my opinion) MAC activities. Then again, look how much time I have just used typing this all up . I think that perhaps the best investment (quite unfortunate, but how typical for our society) MAC could make is hiring a slick PR person. I know that this is unlikely, and from my perspective a gross waste of needed grant capital, so if I can be of any help in this regard, I donate my time (as part of my $5.33 per day). And again, I can only speak from my experiences working in Indonesia under the realistic, responsible, and thoughtful direction of Gayatri and Ron Lilley.

Chow,
Colin

 

[morepunkthanewe]

I had forgot to report the other day of my experiences at the fish suppliers in North Bali. The "suppliers" are middlemen that are the direct purchasers of the fish from the fishermen. They are the folks that transport the fish from the boondocks to the exporters in Denpasar or Jakarta. I visited two such suppliers while in North Bali. The first supplier is not MAC certified, but interested in becoming MAC certified. MAC apparently pledges to match his half of the required capital to upgrade his facility to MAC standards (Thus avoiding Santa Claus Syndrome). He is currently working off some debt, but anticipates that he will be able to come up with his half in the next several months. When I mention that fishermen or suppliers are in debt, it is not to a bank or a credit card company, but most likely to the exporters in the case of suppliers and the suppliers in the case of fishermen (you can see just how easily servitude and poverty can cycle...Fishermen owes supplier money for startup capital...Fishermen forced to sell their fish at deflated prices to this supplier...fishermen remain in debt due to said deflated prices..and on and on). Hand to mouth living, better hope your kids don't get sick... Anyway, this fellow's "facility" consists of a whole lot of fish in plastic bags inflated with oxygen. Fishermen bring him their fish in plastic bags, and he collects them up, and about twice a week he brings them all to the exporter. Twice a week you say? But fish can't.... Right, but apparently this fellow changes the water in the bags once per day and re-oxygenates them, removes dead fish etc. I looked at a few bags and I was amazed at just how many fish he was keeping in these bags, and also at just how few dead ones I saw (I think that these fish had just arrived though, as it looked like he was only at about 1/4 capacity. I would be interested in seeing what they looked like at day 3...). This is typical of the "supplier" facility in Indonesia apparently. Keep in mind that once the supplier is ready to go to the exporter it means many hours or transportation over poor roads and without any styrofoam boxes or protection from the heat other than a tarp over them in the back of a truck. In a concrete tub on the far wall of the shed, I saw a healthy blue-ring octopus that he can't sell to any exporters. The fishermen apparently collect these with their bare hands, and when I asked Dharma, the local MAC staff with me, he said that he has never heard of anyone dying from a blue-ring octopus bite (B.R.O. bites are apparently another WPP (white person problem ;-))). They all laughed when I said how dangerous I have read that they are...

The second supplier facility that I saw was MAC certified and apparently also has his own coral propagation site, although technical difficulties prevented me from actually seeing them (accessible only by boat and with SCUBA). With MAC's guidance and support, this supplier has a proper flow-through closed-system in a shed/building next to his house. The sump consists of probably a 8'x3'x3' cement tub. A water pump pumps water from this sump through a PVC pipe with holes drilled and smaller (maybe 3/8") clear vinyl airline tubing to direct return water flow into the holding tanks. These holding tanks are nothing more than standard double sized styrofoam fish boxes with a hole cut in the center for a PVC drain pipe that returns the water to the sump directly underneath. A simple wet/dry bio filter (With manila, bedroll type foam as filter media) partition separates the return water and the pump. Really quite a basic and completely adequate system if you ask me. The sump water volume is probably nearly 10 times the volume that the fish reside in. The water was clear and all the fish (separated by species and agressiveness) were healthy. Of particular interest at his facility were about 8-10 chambered nautilus that he had collected by baiting basket nets in about 100 m of water. The exporter that he sells fish to would not buy them from him, so from what I gathered he was going to eat the meat and sell the shells (About $3 a piece..not bad for Indo standards) to souvenir shops. At least some exporters are clearly showing responsibility by not buying marinelife that are too fragile, dangerous (as in the case of the blue ring octopus) or have low market demand (most likely the latter, but hey, the reason for that is the former). Overall I was very impressed with his system.

Anyway, I just wanted to post that little bit of my experience with you all. While coral aquaculture is my task, I am fascinated by all aspects of just exactly how and where my little fishy, stoney, leathery, and snappy friends have been coming from.

 

[John_Brandt]

John brandt was here for 2 years. He scored few points for MAC and like all their other early, knee jerk supporters has faded away....not only in contributions here but to the cause as a whole.

Steve, do not put words in my mouth or attempt to characterize my sentiments. What you have said in this message about me is absolutely untrue, except for the part of myself no longer posting here. You are one of the primary reasons I do not post here anymore. The misinformation you give about MAC is staggering in its volume and kind.

My support for MAC is unchanged and very strong. I type that as I am here in the Philippines for a few weeks doing my part to contribute to a great cause and teamed effort.

 

[clarionreef]

So there you are!
Welcome back John,
This is an information exchange forum...and you are welcome to your opinion as are others.
If I recall, you had [ and have] a hard row to hoe and that is the issue.

Many people [ not just I] take umbrage at MACs decade long slow motion education on what it would take to reform the aquarium trade.

Having field connections and cohorts whereever you guys go, its not hard to match the claims of success with reality. ..especially since you have generated so many local critics and enemies along the way.
Then again, its good to have freedom in the press and the distribution of information...is it not? Edit for UA violation -Thales


I think however, you make a good point and that is the tendency to summarize and politicize events. The constructive criticism is sharper when we cite recent specifics and ground the arguments in them.

Take for example the years of work and failures of Clarin and Batasaan?
Edit for UA violation -Thales
How about about Cagayancillo? Tawi Tawi?
Edit for UA violation -Thales
Remember the early, heady days of imagined continued success? Edit for UA violation -Thales
Or the cyanide flagship of Indo...Seribu Islands. ..the new mission that Colin is excited about .
[Colin, Seribu had failed and rebuffed MAC reforms ...and vexed Gayatri for years now...I hope the events of your past 10 days bear more fruit. ]

The devil is in the details and in the genuine truth in the villages....after the city people leave is what counts.

Comon now...John, what misinformation do you mean when talking about these specific showcases of the MAC movement? Would not specific , failed history produce unflattering summations?
Remember, people that don't work for MAC are not bound to Edit for UA violation -Thales allegience to it.
Steve

Edit for UA violation -Thales
"The misinformation you have gave about MAC is staggering in its volume and kind."

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for posting John. Thanks for posting Steve.

Given the history of this forum, I expect everyone to adhere to the strictly to the UA, specifically:

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed).

As you can see, the UA is pretty broad in its scope. With that in mind, I strongly encourage you all (not just John and Steve) to be very respectful of each other in your writing. Before you click submit, ask yourself if what you just wrote might make someone else upset (not the content of what you wrote, the way you wrote it). If the answer is yes, don't post it. Rewrite it. Leave it for a bit and come back to it.
The point of this forum is not to bash others for what they are doing or what they have done. The point of this forum is discussion.
If you violate the UA, you will either get a pm asking you to change what you wrote, your post may be edited, you may be asked to not post to this forum for a week, you may get asked not to post in the forum again until further notice, or you may be banned from this site.


Disagree all you want, but do it respectfully.

Thanks for your understanding.

RR

EDIT:
If you see something that you think violates the UA, do not respond in kind. PM me so I can review it and take action if necessary.

 

[clarionreef]

John,
You wrote:
"except for the part of myself no longer posting here. "

No one drove you away.

Post edited due to UA violation - Thales

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Thales,

What do you think would happen if you hadn't edited the last two messages from S. Robinson?

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
As Jaime inquired..."What do you think would happen if you hadn't edited the last two messages from S. Robinson?"

Something going on we don't know about?
Steve

PS.
"...never mind...."
.................see, a thoughtful non post.

 

[Anonymous]

Thales,

What do you think would happen if you hadn't edited the last two messages from S. Robinson?

You wouldn't have posted asking me the above question.

As a moderator, I don't find it productive to play the leading questions game, so I'm not playing.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Enjoy your time there; I sure did!

YES...AS MARK SAID, ENJOY YOUR VACATION.
sTEVE

GreshamH and all,,

This is why MAC won't ask this here. Once again S. Robinson showing lack of respect and manners.

Umm, a the MAC intern is posting here.
If other MAC people want to post here, but are worried about 'lack of respect', please have them contact me at [email protected] or [email protected]. I have written the above several times in this forum and have never been contacted by someone from MAC. This leads me to believe that claims as to why MAC isn't posting here are just rhetoric.

Thales,

You got at least one direct response. What's next? This is not a leading question game.

 

[mark@mac]

I personally find the question from Jamie B. interesting. It seems he is almost defending Steve, which would be even more interesting....

Next month will be the 4th year anniversary of my, and the first "group" of MAC certified companies in the U.S.

Another comment regarding Colins remark about MAC hiring a "slick pr person":

I wouldn't have called her "slick"; but MAC did have an AWESOME PR person. She quit in December 2004.

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

Enjoy your time there; I sure did!

YES...AS MARK SAID, ENJOY YOUR VACATION.
sTEVE

GreshamH and all,,

This is why MAC won't ask this here. Once again S. Robinson showing lack of respect and manners.

Umm, a the MAC intern is posting here.
If other MAC people want to post here, but are worried about 'lack of respect', please have them contact me at [email protected] or [email protected]. I have written the above several times in this forum and have never been contacted by someone from MAC. This leads me to believe that claims as to why MAC isn't posting here are just rhetoric.

Thales,

You got at least one direct response. What's next? This is not a leading question game.

I don't understand what you are asking or saying in this post or the last. Perhaps you should send me another pm.

 

[dizzy]

Who was that Mark? Sylvia Spalding?

 

[mark@mac]

Dizzy,

Yes; it was Sylvia Spalding. She was the MAC Communications Director for almost 4 years I think.... She always said MAC needed to concentrate on developing certified supply BEFORE seriously engaging the importers/retailers in certification, etc....

M

 

[Anonymous]

Dizzy,

Yes; it was Sylvia Spalding. She was the MAC Communications Director for almost 4 years I think.... Post edited due to IBTH violation - Gresham

M

sorry Mark, we can't risk that leaking out

 

[Anonymous]

 

[clarionreef]

'She [Sylvia] always said MAC needed to concentrate on developing certified supply BEFORE seriously engaging the importers/retailers in certification, etc.... "


Bingo...!
Fired for pushing for simple common sense... and ignored.
Twas our point exactly for years.
Sylvias my new hero..ine.
Steve