What do you think of Race's Guarantee Initiative?
- Thread starter Race
- Start date
This initiative is at the cutting edge of reeform of the industry.
LFS and online stores will look to wholesalers to provide the same guarantee.
Wholesalers will look to exporters for the same guarantee.
Cyanide weakened fish and poorly caught, held and shipped fish will not survive forcing industry to adopt the following:
1. Net caught suppliers.
2. Investment in proper holding and shipping procedures.
3. Avoidance of impossible to keep fish and adoption of an industry-wide USL (unsuitable species list) once and for all.
Thank you
Wayne Ryan
LFS and online stores will look to wholesalers to provide the same guarantee.
Wholesalers will look to exporters for the same guarantee.
Cyanide weakened fish and poorly caught, held and shipped fish will not survive forcing industry to adopt the following:
1. Net caught suppliers.
2. Investment in proper holding and shipping procedures.
3. Avoidance of impossible to keep fish and adoption of an industry-wide USL (unsuitable species list) once and for all.
Thank you
Wayne Ryan
Well they can't afford it most wholesalers offer credit for DOA's above 5%-10% of the order. So if 3% are DOA the LFS is SOL. None provide a DAA guarantee that I am aware of. In fact I tell them that a fish is ill, or 90% covered in ICH and the answer I got back was it's not DOA then........ figure I eat at least 10% on all orders from wholesalers on items that were sick on arrival or DOA.....
And just to clarify how that 5% DOA works, they ask you to eat 5% and credit you anything above that the last time I actually got credit it was not even half of what was lost.....Only time credit works out is if the package is 100% DOA then the shipper gets to eat it..
swsaltwater":3pa6io8k said:
Sounds like you need a new wholesaler
I have to say that the suppliers I use are pretty good at NOT sending out sick fish - although occasionally one or two sneak through the system and we're prepared to deal with that. Also, if I do experience a problem I let my wholesaler know. Not because I expect compensation - we all understand that this is a risky business - however if they don't know about it, they can't watch for it and treat any remaining stock they might have etc.
For a while we were getting lots of angels with flukes/trematodes. Brought it to the supplier's attention and they started being proactive about stopping it at their end. No more problems.
It's a lot about communication.
Another time I asked a supplier for a specie that wasn't on his list that week but they usually carried. A pretty standard bread-and-butter fish - I called and asked if he had any, he said yep, but I wouldn't want them - thin and not doing so well. I appreciated that he wasn't prepared to send me something I wouldn't be happy with, so I waited til the following week.
No I don't know a supplier that will cover DAA - nor should they. Once those fish leave the wholesaler's care, custody and control, it's not their fault if they perish - and if LFS are as "bad" as some hobbyists tout them to be *g*, then why should a wholesaler pay for bad husbandry?
Likewise, a fit and healthy specimen leaving a retailer's facility shouldn't come back to haunt the retailer 2 weeks later if it left healthy and the hobbyist didn't care for it properly.
If Race says that equals not having faith in customers, so be it. Usually when I have a "customer" that doesn't demonstrate basic skills to keep a fish, I basically won't sell to them anyway. That's my *ethic*.
I'd rather not sell it to them for them to kill it and me have to replace it, so I am proactive about making sure that people are able to do the job right *before* they buy a fish, coral or invert.
Selling blind with a 14-day-no-fault guarantee enables people to be less conscientious. I'm not suggesting that anyone and everyone who purchases from F&S is that way - but it surely enables those who are, and I think that's the point of this whole debate.
If I refuse to sell to careless people (who usually turn out to be more bother than they're worth), then Race can have 'em all.
Most people who frequent my store and who buy from me care enough to educate themselves and do what they need to do to ensure the survival of what they buy. If something unforeseen happens and a fish perishes "without cause", I pretty much deal with it on a case by case basis.
My posted guarantee is 24 hours - the fish have been in my care prior to that and the customer can observe it, see it eat, put it on hold for a week etc., *before* it goes home. I've had the occasional instance where something happened after the guarantee expired, and I don't believe I've ever lost a customer over non-effort to make things right with the client. In fact, I've given them the benefit of the doubt on more than one occasion when the exact "fault" was unclear. That's just good business. It's better to eat a small loss today, to keep the customer coming back for months and years to come, than piss them off and alienate them forever by refusing to wiggle a bit.
Will I offer a 14-day guarantee? Nope. I think that places far too much burden on me and the client then can become unwilling to assume their share of the risk. However the way I've done business here seems to work and we have new customers coming in each week, and most customers keep returning, so I'm content with things as they are.
Jenn
JennM":7e9g9adc said:
I think this is an important point because IME most of the LFS in the country are not like that, and think they can't afford to be like that. Most stores sell to anyone, and only sometimes ask the most basic of questions because they have little to no responsibility for the animal once it has left their store.
I also don't think that the people your are describing are the people that LA gets as customers. The 'careless' people are looking for the best price and LA is not cheap. At an LFS I can get bangaiis for 14.99, while at LA the are 19.99 plus shipping. I think most who are looking for the best price are not going to fork over the cash for shipping even with the guarantee.
In other words, I think LA is out of the price range (more expensive than the LFS plus shipping) of the 'careless' people you mention.
Fair enough. However when people team up for group buys, that offsets the costs of shipping and such and can make things cheaper.
I haven't looked at Race's prices lately but the last time I did, some were more, some were less - just depends on the critter. Tack on shipping and yes, that makes the LFS more affordable in some instances.
In my experience though (in life, not just LFS life!) - some people have skewed math. They'll drive 100 miles and spend $20 in gas to save $10 on something... happens all the time.
It's the same "math" that keeps posting threads about "outrageous LFS markups" because somebody saw a fish invoice and perceived the 'profit' on a fish to be 3 times the wholesale price without a thought to box, freight, water, salt, food, electricity, infrastructure, staff, rent... know what I mean?
If it was only the advanced hobbyist dealing with F&S for rare/exotic stuff, then I could buy into your assessment. However, Race himself said that only 24% of what he sells goes through his WI facility - and from what I've read that's most of the fragile/propagated/rare stuff. The other 76% would be more easily available, "garden variety" stuff.
There aren't nearly as many hobbyists who collect the rare and unusual - particularly fish, as there are people keeping clowns and chromis. If there were, I'd specialize more in that sort of thing, but in my shop, bread and butter is what sells.
I've had a gorgeous Blastomussa merletti (actually 3 of them but I finally sold one last week!)... all show sized - bought from me as small pieces years ago, traded back in for customers moving/divorcing etc... everybody loves them, I'm asking a below-market price for them, but nobody wants to pay what they are worth.
Show them a $10 frag and they're all over it like white on rice.
I dunno - it's hard to figure out this crowd
As to whether stores sell in a discriminating fashion or not - well that's up to the discretion of the store. I had this discussion once with a local LFS owner here - he does not own his store anymore but did at the time and he had a "don't ask/don't tell" policy. If a customer wanted Dory for his 6-gallon eclipse, he'd bag it up. If the customer *asked* if Dory was suitable for that eclipse, he'd say no. IMO that was unethical.
It's a tough call sometimes. If the customer was hell-bent on putting Dory in the eclipse, if my competitor didn't sell it to them *anyway*, they'd go someplace else and buy it there... it's a catch 22.
Personally I'd rather they go buy it someplace else because when it dies or whatever, they'll remember the store they bought it from, to be pissed off at. (Even though it's not *necessarily* the store's fault that they made a bad choice).
I suppose too, if I were working for somebody else, and I refused to make that sale at any cost, I might be dismissed for that. Again - it depends on each store's business ethic.
My philosophy is that I won't knowingly let somebody make an inappropriate purchase like that. In doing so, they are more likely to remember who was honest with them and steered them toward success, rather than a quick money grab and imminent failure. Given that I had customers follow me from when I used to work for someone else (with a similar philosophy - but his business went under!)... to where I am at my own place and 5 1/2 years later... people are receptive to this sort of way of doing business.
I'd rather earn their trust and keep them as a long-term customer, rather than take all I can get out of them *today* only to never have them return because of some bad business ethic.
But like I said - that's just me. I'm a hobbyist. Have been for over 20 years and I still think like a hobbyist. I am also a businesswoman. I've applied the Golden Rule about how I liked being treated as a hobbyist and applied it to a business ethic. We all need to make money to survive, but when the primary goal is service to the customer as well as the best interests of the creatures involved, the rest should fall into place.
I also know that not every LFS is as scrupulous as I strive to be... but LFS regularly get raked over the coals for such things - but nobody ever says boo about etailers - most of them never have voice contact with their customers - it's a mouse click away from a transaction and a credit card number - where's the ethic in that?
Jenn
I haven't looked at Race's prices lately but the last time I did, some were more, some were less - just depends on the critter. Tack on shipping and yes, that makes the LFS more affordable in some instances.
In my experience though (in life, not just LFS life!) - some people have skewed math. They'll drive 100 miles and spend $20 in gas to save $10 on something... happens all the time.
It's the same "math" that keeps posting threads about "outrageous LFS markups" because somebody saw a fish invoice and perceived the 'profit' on a fish to be 3 times the wholesale price without a thought to box, freight, water, salt, food, electricity, infrastructure, staff, rent... know what I mean?
If it was only the advanced hobbyist dealing with F&S for rare/exotic stuff, then I could buy into your assessment. However, Race himself said that only 24% of what he sells goes through his WI facility - and from what I've read that's most of the fragile/propagated/rare stuff. The other 76% would be more easily available, "garden variety" stuff.
There aren't nearly as many hobbyists who collect the rare and unusual - particularly fish, as there are people keeping clowns and chromis. If there were, I'd specialize more in that sort of thing, but in my shop, bread and butter is what sells.
I've had a gorgeous Blastomussa merletti (actually 3 of them but I finally sold one last week!)... all show sized - bought from me as small pieces years ago, traded back in for customers moving/divorcing etc... everybody loves them, I'm asking a below-market price for them, but nobody wants to pay what they are worth.
Show them a $10 frag and they're all over it like white on rice.
I dunno - it's hard to figure out this crowd
As to whether stores sell in a discriminating fashion or not - well that's up to the discretion of the store. I had this discussion once with a local LFS owner here - he does not own his store anymore but did at the time and he had a "don't ask/don't tell" policy. If a customer wanted Dory for his 6-gallon eclipse, he'd bag it up. If the customer *asked* if Dory was suitable for that eclipse, he'd say no. IMO that was unethical.
It's a tough call sometimes. If the customer was hell-bent on putting Dory in the eclipse, if my competitor didn't sell it to them *anyway*, they'd go someplace else and buy it there... it's a catch 22.
Personally I'd rather they go buy it someplace else because when it dies or whatever, they'll remember the store they bought it from, to be pissed off at. (Even though it's not *necessarily* the store's fault that they made a bad choice).
I suppose too, if I were working for somebody else, and I refused to make that sale at any cost, I might be dismissed for that. Again - it depends on each store's business ethic.
My philosophy is that I won't knowingly let somebody make an inappropriate purchase like that. In doing so, they are more likely to remember who was honest with them and steered them toward success, rather than a quick money grab and imminent failure. Given that I had customers follow me from when I used to work for someone else (with a similar philosophy - but his business went under!)... to where I am at my own place and 5 1/2 years later... people are receptive to this sort of way of doing business.
I'd rather earn their trust and keep them as a long-term customer, rather than take all I can get out of them *today* only to never have them return because of some bad business ethic.
But like I said - that's just me. I'm a hobbyist. Have been for over 20 years and I still think like a hobbyist. I am also a businesswoman. I've applied the Golden Rule about how I liked being treated as a hobbyist and applied it to a business ethic. We all need to make money to survive, but when the primary goal is service to the customer as well as the best interests of the creatures involved, the rest should fall into place.
I also know that not every LFS is as scrupulous as I strive to be... but LFS regularly get raked over the coals for such things - but nobody ever says boo about etailers - most of them never have voice contact with their customers - it's a mouse click away from a transaction and a credit card number - where's the ethic in that?
Jenn
Jenn,
Do you have any actual experience with an online business? One with a guarantee? I realize that a few people may have walked in you store with an opinion or negative report--- but do you yourself actually have facts?
Are you merely making assumptions and stating what you THINK is happening?
Race
Do you have any actual experience with an online business? One with a guarantee? I realize that a few people may have walked in you store with an opinion or negative report--- but do you yourself actually have facts?
Are you merely making assumptions and stating what you THINK is happening?
Race
Nice post Jenn,
I do think etailers get raked over the coals all the time on online forums. When an etailer sends out crappy stuff and doesn't make the situation right, people speak up a lot. There are also a lot of posts asking if a particular etailer is any good, and people are often very honest about their experiences. I think there are unethical etailers just as there are unethical retailers, and I don't think either one is intrinsically more ethical than the other.
I do think etailers get raked over the coals all the time on online forums. When an etailer sends out crappy stuff and doesn't make the situation right, people speak up a lot. There are also a lot of posts asking if a particular etailer is any good, and people are often very honest about their experiences. I think there are unethical etailers just as there are unethical retailers, and I don't think either one is intrinsically more ethical than the other.
Nice post Jenn,
I do think etailers get raked over the coals all the time on online forums. When an etailer sends out crappy stuff and doesn't make the situation right, people speak up a lot. There are also a lot of posts asking if a particular etailer is any good, and people are often very honest about their experiences. I think there are unethical etailers just as there are unethical retailers, and I don't think either one is intrinsically more ethical than the other.
I do think etailers get raked over the coals all the time on online forums. When an etailer sends out crappy stuff and doesn't make the situation right, people speak up a lot. There are also a lot of posts asking if a particular etailer is any good, and people are often very honest about their experiences. I think there are unethical etailers just as there are unethical retailers, and I don't think either one is intrinsically more ethical than the other.
Race,
Yep, I had some experience as a hobbyist. I tried the online thing. Back in the old FFE days. Pooled an order - I'm sure you've heard me tell this story before. Long and short of it was I ended up with one organism that lived - a wrasse. The other 3 creatures in my share of the order were dead. I paid $41 for a wrasse I could have bought for $22 locally. Sure I had a "credit" for the DBS (died before it shipped) rotting smelly mess in the bag, but I'd have to plumb for shipping again. No thanks. I figured that scam out PDQ.
So do replacements go out free of charge including free shipping? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. If you're eating the replacement creature *and* the shipping, well that's something.
I had a "store credit" with FFE but didn't want to eat the shipping again, so they kept my money. Lesson learned.
Jenn
Yep, I had some experience as a hobbyist. I tried the online thing. Back in the old FFE days. Pooled an order - I'm sure you've heard me tell this story before. Long and short of it was I ended up with one organism that lived - a wrasse. The other 3 creatures in my share of the order were dead. I paid $41 for a wrasse I could have bought for $22 locally. Sure I had a "credit" for the DBS (died before it shipped) rotting smelly mess in the bag, but I'd have to plumb for shipping again. No thanks. I figured that scam out PDQ.
So do replacements go out free of charge including free shipping? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. If you're eating the replacement creature *and* the shipping, well that's something.
I had a "store credit" with FFE but didn't want to eat the shipping again, so they kept my money. Lesson learned.
Jenn
Well that was my single experience with an entity that existed when I did it. You asked, I answered.
You did not answer my question. Do you eat the shipping on the free replacement, or is it 'store credit' and the customer eats the shipping on the 'freebie'?
Jenn
You did not answer my question. Do you eat the shipping on the free replacement, or is it 'store credit' and the customer eats the shipping on the 'freebie'?
Jenn
We do whatever the customer asks. Refund or credit including shipping. That is why I have won every customer service award known to the direct marketing trade, on multiple occasions. Search the internet and you will see.
I am sorry that your one experience with a competitor was so terrible.
I am sorry that your one experience with a competitor was so terrible.
Race":3rar289a said:
Well they aren't your competitor anymore - in fact they became part of your entity, did they not?
So for clarity - because I'm tired tonight - busy sales day today
...You either refund the customer's credit card for the full amount of the creature, plus the shipping charge, OR you give them a credit to their account *with you* (in-house account) for the same?
So if they take the credit card refund, they can go away having lost nothing except there's a dead fish in their wake...
OR
Take the house credit, spend it on something else...
So if I buy a Nemo, pay $X shipping for it and it dies, you will send out a new Nemo and the house credit I had for $X shipping is applied too - so it's a complete freebie? No extra shipping charge or anything?
Like I said, I'm thick tonight - I just want to be sure I understand.
Jenn
Kalkbreath":b7okrjx9 said:
Because its more expensive. Cheap price trumps more expensive guaranteed items. If home depot doubled its prices, people would shop somewhere cheaper even with the return policy. People know that most of the fish die in bag sales at a LFS in my area, but they continue to line up the morning of the sale.
Making up quotes to make a point is lame. If you can provide links to the above quotes, I will edit this post.
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