Drs. Foster and Smith in Target Stores Near You

[dizzy]

Rich,
There may come a time when a major Wholesaler again elects to sell direct to the hobby. All in all, I do not think it is a good fit.

Has anyone else heard the story about the message Bob Fenner posted on WetWebMedia.com asking the owner of ReeferMadness to pay his advertising bill. If the story is accurate the surprising owner was uncloaked.
Mitch

 

[Kalkbreath]

Well you can tell a lot more from a strip test , then no test at all.

Try this out for yourself.... Try guessing what the water parameters are of the customer in my store right now. Im doing a water test as I type this message. I would be interested in having (in store water test naysayers) like Race or Thales at taking a guess at what the water quality results of this customer's five week old tank?
The customer wants to add fish and corals.
What would you suggest I tell this customer from the perspective of a remote online vender?

1.)That water tests are "lame" and nobody's doing it anywho so lets bag some fish and let the fish decide?
{thats what a newbie might gather from Thales last post}

or

2.) that the customer should stay home and do his own tests: buy $120 dollars of test kits so you can learn if its safe to add that $19.99 nemo.
{ in the real world customers dont buy test kits no matter how much we plead with them to do so.}

 

[Caterham]

I am not venturing off topic here as I didn't bring it up in the first place.

I am curious if Thales ever saw first hand the holding system of Twilight Aquatics? Further, did you see their boat and diving gear? Did you ever go to their facility and see the operation first hand?

When they told you that they "caught as needed" did you ever witness this? Do you know, for an absolute fact, the true source of every live animal that they sold?

I think your heart is in the right place. Unfortunately, I know the TRUTH.

 

[Race]

Should you have a question about water parameters you may call or email DrsFosterSmith.com, Liveaquaria.com or Etropicals.com,---- 24 hours a day,---- 7 days per week.
Should you have a question about the hobby and invasive species you may contact Kevin Kohen at Liveaquaria.com. Kevin has been asked to be on the Department of Natural Resource board to be a voice for the hobby on invasive species. Think that is not important? It will not take very many more Snakeheads and Piranhas to end it all. Add a few invasive water plants and that will do it too. National scrutiny is here boys and girls. Kalk, do you talk to your customers about these big issues or are you leaving that to Kevin and me? Stay tuned this winter for T.V. coverage promoting the aquatics hobby, mainly the coral trade.. Kalk, I am kicking in a couple of million dollars for this California based P.R. which will benefit the aquatics trade. Would you like to do the same for all of us who love the hobby---- or are you leaving that to me too? Time to come out of the confines of a mortar box and make a difference. Help me project the hobby in a positive light,-- for all of us. While you discredit the industry,-- I am fighting to advance it.

 

[Anonymous]

I am not venturing off topic here as I didn't bring it up in the first place.

I am curious if Thales ever saw first hand the holding system of Twilight Aquatics? Further, did you see their boat and diving gear? Did you ever go to their facility and see the operation first hand?

When they told you that they "caught as needed" did you ever witness this? Do you know, for an absolute fact, the true source of every live animal that they sold?

I think your heart is in the right place. Unfortunately, I know the TRUTH.

If you are right, thats a shame. It seems like no matter what anyones says everyone is always lying. Depressing industry.

 

[Anonymous]

I would be interested in having (in store water test naysayers) like Race or Thales at taking a guess at what the water quality results of this customer's five week old tank?

You are arguing against extreme versions of my points, and I don't believe those extreme versions. I am not an in store water test naysayer.

The customer wants to add fish and corals.
What would you suggest I tell this customer from the perspective of a remote online vender?

In reality - invest in a decent set of test kits and don't rely on what's available at most LFS.

1.)That water tests are "lame" and nobody's doing it anywho so lets bag some fish and let the fish decide?
{thats what a newbie might gather from Thales last post}

Thats one of those extreme positions that I don't hold. Recommending buying your own test kits says that water tests are important to a successful home reef.

2.) that the customer should stay home and do his own tests: buy $120 dollars of test kits so you can learn if its safe to add that $19.99 nemo.

Another extreme version, but I believe some of it. People should own their own test kits, but I think I would quibble with you regarding what tests people should own or how much they should pay for them.

{ in the real world customers dont buy test kits no matter how much we plead with them to do so.}

Perhaps your test kits are overpriced or you sell them at cost because you care a lot about the fate of that 19.99 Nemo. :wink:

 

[Race]

While each segment of the Industry criticizes the other, we lose credibility as a hobby. Kalk your comments are very damaging for the hobby as they imply that the fastest growing segment of the Industry does not care and simply kills livestock for money. I for one do not. And remember that you are spreading these untruths on a public forum.

My developing PR campaign will attempt to do what AMDA should have-------project the hobby and the associated industry as a viable and caring entity. Would retail also care to organize and do something positive? To date in reviewing the entire RDO board I see nothing but finger pointing by insignificant industry players such as Kalk. Read them yourself, Etail is bad, MAC is bad, Race is bad, Big Box is bad, Dropshipping is bad, hobbyist's are stupid, Wholesalers are bad, government is dumb.

No wonder Washington and the AVMA wants answers! PETA wants a few too, does that get your attention, Kalk ? Why are you leaving these discussions to me ? Why is Retail handing me this fight. Because they have not done a damn thing to help themselves, just criticize those who try.

Guys I will tell you right now, we need to pay attention to the United States and it's sentiment to the trade. Kevin and I are. Kalk and others must leave the comfort zone of everyday life in a fish store box and join the big picture.

Kind of ironic that since the beginning retail has not mustered up a single National voice, not even a viable organization---- Kevin and I have accomplished it in five years. The difference is, we are driven by our hearts and not our paycheck.

 

[JeremyR]

Isn't intentional and long term selling at a loss illegal?

 

[JeremyR]

Eh, nevermind.. sony supposedly sells playstations at a loss

 

[bookfish]

While each segment of the Industry criticizes the other, we lose credibility as a hobby. Kalk your comments are very damaging for the hobby as they imply that the fastest growing segment of the Industry does not care and simply kills livestock for money. I for one do not. And remember that you are spreading these untruths on a public forum.

My developing PR campaign will attempt to do what AMDA should have-------project the hobby and the associated industry as a viable and caring entity. Would retail also care to organize and do something positive? To date in reviewing the entire RDO board I see nothing but finger pointing by insignificant industry players such as Kalk. Read them yourself, Etail is bad, MAC is bad, Race is bad, Big Box is bad, Dropshipping is bad, hobbyist's are stupid, Wholesalers are bad, government is dumb.

No wonder Washington and the AVMA wants answers! PETA wants a few too, does that get your attention, Kalk ? Why are you leaving these discussions to me ? Why is Retail handing me this fight. Because they have not done a damn thing to help themselves, just criticize those who try.

Guys I will tell you right now, we need to pay attention to the United States and it's sentiment to the trade. Kevin and I are. Kalk and others must leave the comfort zone of everyday life in a fish store box and join the big picture.

Kind of ironic that since the beginning retail has not mustered up a single National voice, not even a viable organization---- Kevin and I have accomplished it in five years. The difference is, we are driven by our hearts and not our paycheck.

I must agree. If the public knew how unconcerned many in the industry are re: the proper handling and care of our marine livestock imports, more restrictive legislation would be passed. I'm not arguing for government interference, but when it comes to an industry of competing private businesses, what, besides threat of reduced profits or legislation, would be a motivating factor for change?

 

[swsaltwater]

If there was a business in your shoes not trying to tank things by selling at a loss then I would join them and welcome it, bottom line is as long as you feel it's ok to sell at a loss then LFS's will not join you Race. Competition is great, but it has to be fair competition. If John Doe can afford to sell for less then me and make a living then so be it, he might have less bills or no family to feed. But when someone so rich that they are willing to loose money for no other reason then to put the competition out of business it's not exactly fair market competition.

I do believe the government might frown on a business loosing money long term if the intentions are to hurt or damage another company or market sector.

The lack of concern for livestock by some LFS's is a large cause for concern to me. Petco is a joke and really needs to get out the saltwater arena. The death and destruction I have seen in their tanks is second to none. I have seen small LFS's with dying corals being sold as healthy. Signs of recent fragging, etc. Some hobbyist are guilty as well. Just read on RC that someone threw away some coral due to a nudibranch parasite. To me this is horrible as it could be treated in QT. So hobbyist and businesses alike need to respect the items we take from the sea alot more IMO. I do everything in my power to treat sick animals and keep em alive. DOA's and DAA'a re part of the hobby so all we can do is try to minimize them.

 

[Kalkbreath]

If the public knew how unconcerned many in the industry are re: the proper handling and care of our marine livestock imports, more restrictive legislation would be passed.

Who are these "unconcerned" people you claim dominate the industry?
The importers?= they live or die by the DOA percentage.

The retailers?= I have seen my fair share of fish stores in the south and west and I don't see the blatant disregard you claim is so highly prevalent. Is this a SF bay area problem thats tainted your overall view of Americas current brick and mortar fish stores?

The customers? = they order blindly over the web to save two bucks on a coral beauty then get in their car and dive two hundred miles to buy South down in a neighboring state. Customers care very much about their livestocks wellbeing when its directly tied to their pocket books!
and WHEN THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS SURVIVAL!

BUT not nearly so when its covered by a no fault guarantee.

 

[Kalkbreath]

While each segment of the Industry criticizes the other, we lose credibility as a hobby. Kalk your comments are very damaging for the hobby as they imply that the fastest growing segment of the Industry does not care and simply kills livestock for money. I for one do not. And remember that you are spreading these untruths on a public forum.

What rumors?
Face to face guidance and husbandry advice will always have distinct advantages over phone and email correspondence.

New hobbyists are a lot like children in the beginning weeks of new their reef hobby. They many times dont understand the gravity of issues like water testing or compatibility. Even more troublesome is a new hobbyists
lackadaisical concern about telling the truth! Many times the truth can only be revealed by an in hand water sample or when a store demands they bring in the fish in question so I can see first hand (not a blurry emailed photo)...the ever tale telling ripped fin tank mate assault victim in all his bite marked glory.
Not to mention the a comping lying eyes of the hobbyists who claims the fish was not beat up by the clown trigger they purchased online for this nano reef tank.
Its silly to think that newbie coaching can be nearly as friutfull from ten states away and with out the tools we real fish store use to stubbornly coach our new customers into real reefers.

Could a web based e-tail store coach a little league team?
No yelling , no peer pressure, no eye contact?

Its plain to see that many of you have never actually coached in retail environment.

What seems like the perfect plan simply doesn't play out in the real world.

Your ideas for drastically needed change are not only unfounded:they also seem like a wide step in the wrong direction.

With much irony I type this response: for I too am about to launch an e-tail site selling to far away customers of which are not my own.
and would best be served by the local fish store which established them in the hobby.

.....its just that I am honest about what I am doing and the effects it will have.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, I am kicking in a couple of million dollars for this California based P.R. which will benefit the aquatics trade. Would you like to do the same for all of us who love the hobby---- or are you leaving that to me too? Time to come out of the confines of a mortar box and make a difference. Help me project the hobby in a positive light,-- for all of us. While you discredit the industry,-- I am fighting to advance it.

And its about time online based companies carried their fair share and create customers instead of relaying upon the brick and mortar retailers to provide e-tailers life blood.
Im truely glad to hear of this change of events, if its effective I will be the first to pat you on the back!
( in a "virtual" online sort of way!(wink)

 

[Anonymous]

But when someone so rich that they are willing to loose money for no other reason then to put the competition out of business it's not exactly fair market competition.

Is this true?

 

[PeterIMA]

I was told that Smith and Foster have about 360 staff taking on-line orders for their drygoods, fish and other aquarium supplies. That is a lot of competition for the LFSs.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

If there was a business in your shoes not trying to tank things by selling at a loss then I would join them and welcome it, bottom line is as long as you feel it's ok to sell at a loss then LFS's will not join you Race. Competition is great, but it has to be fair competition. If John Doe can afford to sell for less then me and make a living then so be it, he might have less bills or no family to feed. But when someone so rich that they are willing to loose money for no other reason then to put the competition out of business it's not exactly fair market competition.

IME, the prices for livestock on Race's site are not cheaper than LFS.
I also know of a couple of LFS that are pricing fish as loss leaders.

The lack of concern for livestock by some LFS's is a large cause for concern to me. Petco is a joke and really needs to get out the saltwater arena. The death and destruction I have seen in their tanks is second to none. I have seen small LFS's with dying corals being sold as healthy. Signs of recent fragging, etc. Some hobbyist are guilty as well. Just read on RC that someone threw away some coral due to a nudibranch parasite. To me this is horrible as it could be treated in QT. So hobbyist and businesses alike need to respect the items we take from the sea alot more IMO.

+1

 

[Anonymous]

If the public knew how unconcerned many in the industry are re: the proper handling and care of our marine livestock imports, more restrictive legislation would be passed.

Who are these "unconcerned" people you claim dominate the industry?
The importers?= they live or die by the DOA percentage.

Where did he say they dominate the industry? Kalk, I think your misrepresentations of what people say make it difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you.

The retailers?= I have seen my fair share of fish stores in the south and west and I don't see the blatant disregard you claim is so highly prevalent. Is this a SF bay area problem thats tainted your overall view of Americas current brick and mortar fish stores?

When I travelled as part of my work I went to LFS all around the country. It isn't just a SF Bay area issue. There are good stores out there, but there are also the bad ones.

The customers? = they order blindly over the web to save two bucks on a coral beauty then get in their car and dive two hundred miles to buy South down in a neighboring state. Customers care very much about their livestocks wellbeing when its directly tied to their pocket books!
and WHEN THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS SURVIVAL!

BUT not nearly so when its covered by a no fault guarantee.

I think that is an oversimplification. Some people will drive for southdown, some won't. Some people order over the web because they don't want to drive all over looking for a particular animals or product. Some people care about the well being of the animals they purchase, some don't, regardless of it being tied to their pocket books.

 

[Anonymous]

Face to face guidance and husbandry advice will always have distinct advantages over phone and email correspondence.[/quote]

Only when that face to face guidance and husbandry is good - stores that want to sell that skilter or those magic additives leave something to be desired when they guide new hobbyists to those products.

New hobbyists are a lot like children in the beginning weeks of new their reef hobby. They many times dont understand the gravity of issues like water testing or compatibility. Even more troublesome is a new hobbyists lackadaisical concern about telling the truth! Many times the truth can only be revealed by an in hand water sample or when a store demands they bring in the fish in question so I can see first hand (not a blurry emailed photo)...the ever tale telling ripped fin tank mate assault victim in all his bite marked glory.
Not to mention the a comping lying eyes of the hobbyists who claims the fish was not beat up by the clown trigger they purchased online for this nano reef tank.
Its silly to think that newbie coaching can be nearly as friutfull from ten states away and with out the tools we real fish store use to stubbornly coach our new customers into real reefers.

Again, I think you are lumping all stores together, and they simply all aren't as good as yours. When I got back into the hobby about 10 years ago, I got some very very good advice over the web from someone in NY. Every day, on forums like RDO, newbies are given very good, very detailed advice on basic husbandry, and correcting bad info from LFS happens all to regurly. I like LFS, but I think the argument that they are inherently better than etail is the wrong argument.

Could a web based e-tail store coach a little league team?
No yelling , no peer pressure, no eye contact?

Yelling, peer pressure - those sound like terrible tools to coach kids let alone customers.

Its plain to see that many of you have never actually coached in retail environment.

I have. In at least six stores. I never yelled at a customer - specially when I refused to sell them something.

 

[Anonymous]

Isn't intentional and long term selling at a loss illegal?

So is Price Fixing but that has never stopped a certain pumpmaker