Drs. Foster and Smith in Target Stores Near You

[swsaltwater]

Bookfish I did not mean to paint every LFS employee with the same brush.

For the record I buy all my stuff from an LFS. The owner is informed, experienced and up to date.
No bioballs, cleaner wrasse, Moorish idol or dendro in his tanks.


Wayne

Just curious, why no cleaner wrasse? I have a good 95% success rate on them when I get em from Vietnam transships. Eat brine out of the bag. Have 2 in my show tank for 18+ months and they are breeding regular and cleaning up the tanks fish. Wish they had viable fry. Also keep 1-2 in every tank to get the pests that the copper and para guard misses...........Other sources have proven to be bad however with low survival.

I would have to add Powder blues and Copperbands to the limited import list, 50% survival at best in my experiences.

 

[Anonymous]

Bookfish I did not mean to paint every LFS employee with the same brush.

For the record I buy all my stuff from an LFS. The owner is informed, experienced and up to date.
No bioballs, cleaner wrasse, Moorish idol or dendro in his tanks.


Wayne

Just curious, why no cleaner wrasse? I have a good 95% success rate on them when I get em from Vietnam transships. Eat brine out of the bag. Have 2 in my show tank for 18+ months and they are breeding regular and cleaning up the tanks fish. Wish they had viable fry. Also keep 1-2 in every tank to get the pests that the copper and para guard misses...........Other sources have proven to be bad however with low survival.

I would have to add Powder blues and Copperbands to the limited import list, 50% survival at best in my experiences.

my only issue with cleaner wrasses is that they're too integral a component of keeping fish populations around/healthy in any given (wild) area they 'work' in-i've also found them to be relatively easy to get eating various foods-IF they arrive in decent condition

the problem is usually not with the fish as an unsuitable species -re: powder blues/copperbands etc-(with the exception of truly specialized obligate feeders of one type or another)-it's the condition the fish get to before they land here due to what happens to them on the OTHER side of the coc-i've seen entire shipments of powder blues come into the country COATED with ick (they HAD to have shown ick at the holding stations/companies, given that one can see not only cysts, but cyst scars on the fish's bodies-ich present in various stages)-yellow tangs with bellies so pinched you could read a newspaper through the bottom half of their body with a mini maglight, heh. those we manage to clear up/save in time with proper protocols that don't succumb immediately to the combined stresses of long term starvation/overcrowding/disease/acclimation from the other side of the coc actually do quite well, and eat like pigs within 24-48 hours of 'tanking'



i'd say 85-90% or better of ALL health/disease issues sw ornamentals (that are by now reputed to constantly) have could be eliminated with better collection/holding/transport practices (transport meaning between collection to holding, and holding to export from country of origin)

Post edited for violating the User Agreement Addendum; The Industry Behind the Hobby Forum. Futher violations may result in the revocation of posting privileges - Thales wrote:

Industry has a moral duty

morality is entirely subjective and relative-and you lost any claim to right of 'holier than though' the very second you set up your aquarium-you directly contributed to adding to/propagating all of the very issues you constantly whine about-and you've never done anything about it other than tell others what you 'demand' they should do :roll: :evil:

'tang police' indeed :roll: you have a moral duty to empty your tank, and stop burning fossil fuels to help keep reef creatures from their natural habitat! talk about hypocrisy! :roll: :lol:


although there are still plenty who don't give livestock proper care/treatment post import into the country of destination, be it at the retail, wholesale, or consumer level-i'll always contend that the most damage is done at the source end, from what i've seen

the sad shame is that it never really needed, and certainly doesn't now need, to be that way

 

[Kalkbreath]

I will again state that we believe most people visit the web to learn before they decide to enter a hobby. Do any of you have nonaquatic hobbies? Did the web play a role? Did you research the web BEFORE you obtained a new puppy or kitty? I bet more than a few of you did. If you did not--you probably should have. Education is key.

Your missing the key issue here , what made them search the web for the info.
Typing the words "Beef cow" or "reef tank'" into the Google search box doesnt come by chance. First the person must develop the interest in Beef cows or a reef tank.
Any one who does is soon to learn that buying a glass aquarium over the web is not a common event. Thats usually where the local big box comes into play and then the mom and pops if the boxers dont have the color or size thier looking for. Only after buying the aquarium locally, do the web etailers get thier shot at the customer.(3rd place)
Most of my customers dont even know about the local reef club. (which we give a ten percent discount too).
Its easy to keep track of who asks for the discount and who doesn't.
Another store went out this week in Atlanta.... and I will miss all the customers not being generated by the fellow brick and mortar.

Race ?any chance your Target stores will have up and running display tanks to entice the public?

 

[Race]

Kalk,
I think you are missing my point. I do not care what or who entices someone to obtain a dog, bird, cat, fish or coral. It could be you, it could be me or it could be uncle Benney. Makes no difference and we have plenty of each in this country.

My main goal is to serve those who are interested in the hobby. It is not to entice the disinterested to "give it a try". If we have more sellers than buyers then some sellers can look elsewhere for employment. That has governed business since the invention of free enterprise. Through it all, the hobby will survive along with enough quality Wholesalers to keep us happy. Remember this --- The hobby will drive the industry--- the industry will not drive the hobby.--- The main objective of a Pepsi Cola ad is not to get people to drink soda. Pepsi ads get soda drinkers to drink Pepsi.

As far as the Target question--ask Target. By the way, I have a retail store with many display tanks. Did you have a Coral and Fish Conference complete with a childrens section this year ? Do you have an aquaculture facility or do you simply exploit the ocean's resource for a profit. If you really care, please help advance aquaculture. Do not just say it is nice, do something about it and participate. It is wise to give if you are going to take. I will keep watch and reminding you of this.

There will be more retailers AND etailers that cannot survive. So goes the cycle of business.

 

[Race]

Just Dave.
My 24 year old motto of " Give the customer what they want" does not mean give them the fish and coral or the advice thay want to hear. No veterinarian would do that. It means service them how they want to be served. If they want credit give them credit. If they want a reship, provide a reship. If they want their money back, send it back.

In the bigger picture if they want retail, give them retail. If they want internet, give them internet. Should they desire a catalog, produce one. If they want aquaculture, then aquaculture. We do all of these things because that is what the customer wants and is right. If we do not, they will shop elsewhere and I would too.

We look at what THEY want and provide the service. We never state that "this is our policy and that is how things will be". For those that do not know, we are always near the top in every customer service award. We just landed number 5 in service of the top 100 internet web sites. That took all major etailers into account. For more, read "our history" at the bottom of our home page at DrsFosterSmith.com.

 

[Anonymous]

One of my favorite LFS went out of business a few months ago....

couldn't survive.

It was our best link to janitors.

 

[Race]

Seahorse,
If they closed doors for purely business reasons then one of two things happened. They either built a store where there was not enough sustainable customer base or they did not give the customers what they wanted.

The last five years have been good in this industry and that was the time to squirrel money away to get through the tough years, such as this. A cyclical nature is true in every business, aquatics is not unique here.

I do not see this industry as being a large growth area at all, perhaps ever with all the public scrutiny and pressures. I may be wrong. Having said that, I think we can maintain what we have and improve it. That is why I am staying in.

 

[Anonymous]

For whatever it is worth, we have thousands and thousands and thousands of visitors EACH day at our websites. Through Coremetrics we track their behavior. 95 % simply read information but do not purchase. There is a reason that I have a staff that does nothing but research and write.

LiveAquaria.com alone has several thousand unique readers EVERY single day. Not sure why they are reading--- but we know what. Naturally my assumptions will be different than yours. Perhaps they are all ignorant and do not actually learn anything about the hobby. Just for kicks you may also keep an eye on our forum at RC. Oftentimes more users browse and learn there than some other areas.

I will again state that we believe most people visit the web to learn before they decide to enter a hobby. Do any of you have nonaquatic hobbies? Did the web play a role? Did you research the web BEFORE you obtained a new puppy or kitty? I bet more than a few of you did. If you did not--you probably should have. Education is key.

I think you are right in many respects.

When I visit a LFS and see potential reefers browsing around, I always take the time to tell them it is a huge mistake to impulse buy on the spot.
They will be sold useless equipment and eventually fish, inverts and coral that have no chance of survival in a newbie tank..

I give them the names of the forums and advise them to google if they forget the names. I recommend books to them.
90% walk out without buying. You cannot deal with the ignorant few.

In Texas you could get shot for doing this!!

Thats a very nice thing to go around and stop people from spending money in a store. I am sure the store owners appreciate you stealing food off their table!

 

[Anonymous]

Industry has a moral duty

morality is entirely subjective and relative-and you lost any claim to right of 'holier than though' the very second you set up your aquarium-you directly contributed to adding to/propagating all of the very issues you constantly whine about-and you've never done anything about it other than tell others what you 'demand' they should do :roll: :evil:

'tang police' indeed :roll: you have a moral duty to empty your tank, and stop burning fossil fuels to help keep reef creatures from their natural habitat! talk about hypocrisy! :roll: :lol:

What an amazingly hypocritical post.

 

[just dave]

Just Dave.
My 24 year old motto of " Give the customer what they want" does not mean give them the fish and coral or the advice thay want to hear. No veterinarian would do that. It means service them how they want to be served. If they want credit give them credit. If they want a reship, provide a reship. If they want their money back, send it back.

In the bigger picture if they want retail, give them retail. If they want internet, give them internet. Should they desire a catalog, produce one. If they want aquaculture, then aquaculture. We do all of these things because that is what the customer wants and is right. If we do not, they will shop elsewhere and I would too.

We look at what THEY want and provide the service. We never state that "this is our policy and that is how things will be". For those that do not know, we are always near the top in every customer service award. We just landed number 5 in service of the top 100 internet web sites. That took all major etailers into account. For more, read "our history" at the bottom of our home page at DrsFosterSmith.com.

From what I've seen your customer service is above reproach and I'm not surprised with your standing in that category. My point was that we are in an industry that has come under some scrutiny for what we sell ( the MO side of it mostly.) The give 'em what they want, they are always right, no hassle guarantees, and all the other philosophies that go along with retail for the American buying public are somewhat at odds with the live goods we sale. It is a dilemma that I'm faced with every hour we are open. A dilemma that e-tail would find even more challenging. How do we insure that the animals we sell are going to people that properly care for them? We can't. We give them access to the proper tools and knowledge but we can't make them utilize any of them. We give them increasingly more open ended return policies and guarantees in order to keep them happy which keeps them coming back but also gives them a way to circumvent using the proper tools or learning the proper techniques. Why should they bother with any of it when they can just get another ( at no cost and with a minimum of hassle ) if that one doesn't make it? I'm sure almost no one buys an animal with the desire to see it die but many probably do less 'n they should knowing that if that one doesn't make it maybe the next one will. In my views we pretty much have three kinds of people that own aquariums. The casual aquarist, the dedicated hobbyist, and the person that views it as decoration ( certainly some crossover exists.) The hobbyist is the segment of least concern and ,in my opinion, are the smallest part of the group. If we are worried about over harvesting ,the negative environmental impact ,and negative public opinion along with the inevitable government scrutiny that follows we should also worry about the care provided by the end user. Which brings me back to the dilemma. A dilemma probably made worse by some of our policies. I don't have the answer. Accountability is certainly part of the answer but can only be applied to what one can control.

 

[Anonymous]

Industry has a moral duty

morality is entirely subjective and relative-and you lost any claim to right of 'holier than though' the very second you set up your aquarium-you directly contributed to adding to/propagating all of the very issues you constantly whine about-and you've never done anything about it other than tell others what you 'demand' they should do :roll: :evil:

'tang police' indeed :roll: you have a moral duty to empty your tank, and stop burning fossil fuels to help keep reef creatures from their natural habitat! talk about hypocrisy! :roll: :lol:

What an amazingly hypocritical post.

i do not demand that others don't keep to their hobby due to a superior morality

the 'hypocrisy' was intentional-to show 'holier than though' how ludicrous he is-of course you didn't see that :roll:

i have no illusions or self denial about what my participation in the hobby and industry does-in fact, i'm in a position to know better than 99% of the hobbyist population (who have NO clue as to the numbers involved) to know the scale of our impact on things

 

[Anonymous]

Industry has a moral duty

morality is entirely subjective and relative-and you lost any claim to right of 'holier than though' the very second you set up your aquarium-you directly contributed to adding to/propagating all of the very issues you constantly whine about-and you've never done anything about it other than tell others what you 'demand' they should do :roll: :evil:

'tang police' indeed :roll: you have a moral duty to empty your tank, and stop burning fossil fuels to help keep reef creatures from their natural habitat! talk about hypocrisy! :roll: :lol:

What an amazingly hypocritical post.

i find one sector of the industry claiming that an other has more moral 'fault' towards the environment to be the epitome of hypocrisy-what do you think? after all-from source to end consumer, we're ALL enablers, are we not ? :idea:

 

[swsaltwater]

Just Dave.
My 24 year old motto of " Give the customer what they want" does not mean give them the fish and coral or the advice thay want to hear. No veterinarian would do that. It means service them how they want to be served. If they want credit give them credit. If they want a reship, provide a reship. If they want their money back, send it back.

In the bigger picture if they want retail, give them retail. If they want internet, give them internet. Should they desire a catalog, produce one. If they want aquaculture, then aquaculture. We do all of these things because that is what the customer wants and is right. If we do not, they will shop elsewhere and I would too.

We look at what THEY want and provide the service. We never state that "this is our policy and that is how things will be". For those that do not know, we are always near the top in every customer service award. We just landed number 5 in service of the top 100 internet web sites. That took all major etailers into account. For more, read "our history" at the bottom of our home page at DrsFosterSmith.com.

From what I've seen your customer service is above reproach and I'm not surprised with your standing in that category. My point was that we are in an industry that has come under some scrutiny for what we sell ( the MO side of it mostly.) The give 'em what they want, they are always right, no hassle guarantees, and all the other philosophies that go along with retail for the American buying public are somewhat at odds with the live goods we sale. It is a dilemma that I'm faced with every hour we are open. A dilemma that e-tail would find even more challenging. How do we insure that the animals we sell are going to people that properly care for them? We can't. We give them access to the proper tools and knowledge but we can't make them utilize any of them. We give them increasingly more open ended return policies and guarantees in order to keep them happy which keeps them coming back but also gives them a way to circumvent using the proper tools or learning the proper techniques. Why should they bother with any of it when they can just get another ( at no cost and with a minimum of hassle ) if that one doesn't make it? I'm sure almost no one buys an animal with the desire to see it die but many probably do less 'n they should knowing that if that one doesn't make it maybe the next one will. In my views we pretty much have three kinds of people that own aquariums. The casual aquarist, the dedicated hobbyist, and the person that views it as decoration ( certainly some crossover exists.) The hobbyist is the segment of least concern and ,in my opinion, are the smallest part of the group. If we are worried about over harvesting ,the negative environmental impact ,and negative public opinion along with the inevitable government scrutiny that follows we should also worry about the care provided by the end user. Which brings me back to the dilemma. A dilemma probably made worse by some of our policies. I don't have the answer. Accountability is certainly part of the answer but can only be applied to what one can control.

Well said, I find issues with livestock gurantees but they are a must now since etail started it. I find more and more B&M's going with some kind of warranty. I know for a fact Dr F&S no hassle approach causes irresponsible reefkeepers to not care. I heard one bragging in fact that he or his friend do not acclimate or QT cause he will get a refund or replacement from live aquaria. I think all warranties should have a clause or at least an requirement to test water and find out the acclimation procedures used.

 

[Anonymous]

etail did NOT start the whole issue of livestock 'guarantees;, as i recall.

it was petco/petsmart/just for pets that initiated it as a standard policy, forcing the b&ms to follow suit

it's been around for awhile before etail got 'serious' in the fish biz

 

[liquidfunk]

Target's reputation for market share and outstanding customer service speaks for itself.

Customer Service at Target!? Now thats FUNNY!

 

[just dave]

I am not implying that warranties are at fault or that they should be done away with. We have offered a one week guarantee since we opened. I just wonder that in our quest to give the customers what they want perhaps we are doing some disservices to the hobby under the veil of good customer service, knowingly or not.

 

[Anonymous]

Industry has a moral duty

morality is entirely subjective and relative-and you lost any claim to right of 'holier than though' the very second you set up your aquarium-you directly contributed to adding to/propagating all of the very issues you constantly whine about-and you've never done anything about it other than tell others what you 'demand' they should do :roll: :evil:

'tang police' indeed :roll: you have a moral duty to empty your tank, and stop burning fossil fuels to help keep reef creatures from their natural habitat! talk about hypocrisy! :roll: :lol:

What an amazingly hypocritical post.

i do not demand that others don't keep to their hobby due to a superior morality

the 'hypocrisy' was intentional-to show 'holier than though' how ludicrous he is-of course you didn't see that :roll:

Please find less inflammatory ways to make your points, or please find a different venue in which to make your points. Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Race]

Just dave,
I have stated twice before on this board that less than 5% of our livestock die during shipping and within the 14 day guarantee period ( 30 day on aquacultured coral). It is most likely something less than that as not everyone is truthful. Given the fact that the dropshipped fish are shipped only ONE time ( one acclimation from wholesaler to hobbyist ) this is perhaps less than a LFS that has two acclimations involved. Wholesalers shipping to retailers do have DOA claims from the LFS. On top of that LFS have warranty claims from their customers. On top of that there are is the in store mortality. Is all of that less than 5 % ? Perhaps someone can enlighten us here. Do not try and fool us as most of our professional staff ran or worked in private retail fish stores.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
I think you are missing my point. I do not care what or who entices someone to obtain a dog, bird, cat, fish or coral.

But do you care if no one creates the hobbyists?

 

[Anonymous]

I think its two different ideas - creating new customers and serving current customers.

If, as has been argued here many times, etail cannot create new customers, then I'm really not sure what B&M's are so worried about because they will always have customers that etail won't have. There will always be a place for B&M's, but maybe the swarm of hole in the wall B&M's is something that should stop.

I have always wondered why B&M's don't partner with etailers - it seems like it would be easy to make a portal page on a B&M's website to an etailer, and then the customer would enter a code and a percentage of the the sale could go back to the B&M from the etailer. Good B&M's could feel good about referring customers online for items they don't normally stock and still have all the benefits of the storefront. I am sure there are problems with this idea, but it feels like they could be worked out.

BTW, I agree with the idea that instead of trying to create new customers, the hobby and industry would be better served improving the hobby and industry.