Report from Australia

[dizzy]

Steve he does appear to be grounded in reality. Where did that article appear in publication?
Mitch

 

[Fish_dave]

Mitch,

Go to www.goldendolphin.com and most of Walter's stuff is available there. Download the article 'Threats' to the Great Barrier Reef, it is a great article. I really like his tell it like it is style. He seems to be motivated less by where his next grant windfall will come from and more by actual truth and reality. Very interesting reading.

Dave

 

[dizzy]

Thanks Dave,
That is a great web site. If only we could get people like Wayne Ryan to read and learn from that site. :wink:
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

DAVE,
Thanks for posting the link ...

Ironically, those who profess a deep concern for our precious environment tend to predominantly be urbanites who themselves choose to live in an environment where the natural world has been almost completely annihilated. Incongruous too is their fierce rejection of any suggestion that anything may not be a bad as they fear (or apparently hope).

Contrary to popular perception, in most developed countries the overall environmental condition has greatly improved over the past few decades and although much remains to be done the situation good and getting better. Real problems are quite sufficient. We do not need to waste effort and resources on imaginary ones.




Australia with its vast area, small population, remoteness, and high standard of living enjoys one of the least polluted, unspoiled natural environments of any nation. Unfortunately, environmental management here has tended to become dominated by ideology, theories, and a proliferation of bureaucracy with minimal assessment of either the real environment or the socio-economic consequences. Exacerbated by the precautionary principle the result has been a growing morass of restrictions and demands to address problems that often do not exist or that could be addressed by more effective, less burdensome measures. With a prosperity based predominantly on primary production ill-conceived environmental regulations are becoming a far more real threat to national security than is the danger of terrorism.

In the prevailing climate of political correctness concerning environmental matters few scientists are willing to speak out in opposition to the misrepresentation, suppression and outright fraud that is often being perpetrated in connection with environmental issues.

At best it means being shunned by colleagues and almost certainly will have negative career consequences. I have because a combination of age and independence permit, knowledge and experience qualify, and sense of responsibility impel me to do so. The response from those on the receiving end of environmental mismanagement has been gratifying and the private agreement of many researchers surprising.

And I feel so much less alone knowing that my own track record of critical thinking on this stuff is vindicated futher still.
Steve
:lol:

 

[dizzy]

Eco-ideology
Environmentalism has become a quasi-religious blend of new-age nature worship, junk science, left-wing political activism and anti-profit economics. Saving the environment supports a mini-industry of activists, bureaucrats and researchers all of whom have a vested interest in promoting the idea of threats, which, of course, require more campaigns, more bureaucracy and more research. Misinformed politicians thinking they are doing the right thing and perceiving popularity at little apparent cost have tended to give rubber stamp approval to the environmentalist agenda.

I must admit this quote brought back memories of the Peter, Paul, Mary, David, Michael, King James, and John the Baptist thread when I read that quasi-religious blend line.

 

[naesco]

Steve, do you feel the same way about global warming?


Thanks for the info.
It has got to be food for thought for those in industry who to date have failed to see the the writing on the wall and have chosen to do nothing.

Soon it will be the very people, the scientists, politicians and lefties that will reeform the industry rather than the industry itself.

Wayne Ryan

 

[clarionreef]

wayne
The Australian story is not the global story or the philippine story.
in some places, our eco EXCESS REGULATORY culture has evolved beyond reason and hurt innocent people.
In other places....chaos has ruled and undermanagement has occured....AND HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE.
One size simply does not fit all despite the need for simple solutions among well meaning people....
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

If Wayne takes anything away from reading your post Steve I sure hope its

One size simply does not fit all despite the need for simple solutions among well meaning people....

I would add those very well meaning people can do far more harm then good and unfortunately to date they have failled to see ithat.

 

[naesco]

If Wayne takes anything away from reading your post Steve I sure hope its

One size simply does not fit all despite the need for simple solutions among well meaning people....

I would add those very well meaning people can do far more harm then good and unfortunately to date they have failled to see ithat.

I agree with Steve's comments but not yours.

Please list the positive steps that industry has taken to preserve their industry and my hobby in the following areas.

1. What steps has industry taken to see a cyanide detection test (CDT) implemented in the US or import countries. Those 'well meaning people' are not going to allow the reefs and the critters that dwell within to be continued to be destroyed by the use of cyanide.

2. What steps has industry taken to impelment an unsuitable species list (USL)? Those 'welling meaning people' are not going to allow industry to bring tonnes of fish into the US that have no reasonable hope of success in hobbyist tanks. NOTHING JUSTIFIES THE USE OF CYANIDE

I will put to you that the answer to both 1. and 2. is INDUSTRY HAS DONE NOTHING.

As a result of industry's lack of committment to change their ways, there is no doubt in my mind that these well meaning people will bring in regulations similar to Australia's.

As a hobbyist I will be left with a few imported species like damsals and hobbyists will be left with trading brown frags with eachother.

Has a business reliant on the smooth flow of fish and coral from exporters YOU will be left with nothing.
Wayne Ryan

 

[Caterham]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for your comments on this thread.

There are multiple LD3 containers landing in your very own hometown each and every week from Indonesia and Philippines.

Please explain, in detail, the steps that you have taken in your own hometown to make sure the fish are clean and collected in a sustainable manner.

Many thanks in advance for your reply.

Warmest regards,

 

[clarionreef]

Targeting the industry as a single entity has always befuddled me.
Just who is the industry?
Where can we find their chief? Are they like isolated tribes yet brought to unification...and civilization? Who speaks for them...or purports to speak for them?
steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The industry term, in the case of the marine ornamentals trade, includes:
- the aquarium makers
- filtration systems builders
- lighting systems suppliers
- food, additives (junk) medications and others
-book writers (related to the different topics of this hobby)
-fish collectors
-middlemen/women (fish buyers traveling to different places buying fish/in developing countries)
-exporters (suppliers of material required to pack and ship fish overseas)
-airlines (carriers of fish/ these make big money)
-importers ( and suppliers of the material they require to run their operations)
-wholesalers
-transhippers
-retailers
-aquarium hobbyists
-.......and probably more

All those who make money from this trade can be considered as members of this industry.

jaime

 

[naesco]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for your comments on this thread.

There are multiple LD3 containers landing in your very own hometown each and every week from Indonesia and Philippines.

Please explain, in detail, the steps that you have taken in your own hometown to make sure the fish are clean and collected in a sustainable manner.

Many thanks in advance for your reply.

Warmest regards,

The following steps:
1. I purchase aqua-cultured fish and coral or frags.
2. I support local LFS that do carry them
3. I post on the local board.
4. We are fortunate in that the LFS in Vancouver Canada are sensitive to the needs of the reefs.
5. Whilst visiting 'bad' LFS, I chide the management if I see unsuitable species. I know others do as well.
6. Whilst in these 'bad' stores I approach newbies and others and advise them on cyanide, unsuitable species, size of tank. I also give them the site for this board, the local board and wetwebmedia.com so they gain knowledge before they buy.
7. As a result of the LFSs own initiative, and concerned reefers we seldom see unsuitable species like carnation coral, moorish idol, cleaner wrasse, sharks, octopus and unsuitable butterflyfish. A few years back they were commonly sold.

On a global basis:
I post on the issue as often as I can. Sometimes I grow weary of doing this but am encouraged by the emails, telephone calls and PMs that I get.
I draw to the attention of interested parties, comments and postings made by industry on these issues.
I email and phone interested parties on these issues including current issue like ricordea.
And,I am not alone in doing this.
When circumstances change, I plan to attend as many conferences as I can to demand reeform of industry whether these conferences are held by industry or by government agencies.
I assure you, industry's dirty little secret, cyanide, will be front and center.

What efforts do you as an owner of a LFS make?
Do you seek out aqua-cultured stock?
Do you avoid fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant?
Do you refuse to buy unsuitable species.
Do you advise your customers of the minimus requirements of species like tangs which require large tanks to thrive?

I am awaiting the answers to your questions soon as the last time I asked questions my post was ignored.
Thank you
Wayne Ryan

 

[naesco]

Targeting the industry as a single entity has always befuddled me.
Just who is the industry?
Where can we find their chief? Are they like isolated tribes yet brought to unification...and civilization? Who speaks for them...or purports to speak for them?
steve

Thanks Jaime.

Steve for the record I do not blame everyone.
There are importers of fish from the Phillipines who strive to buy net caught fish.
There are LFS who do the same. Many of them post on this board.

By and large the fishers are not to blame. They are victems of an industry that cares little for the reefs that support their livelihood. Industry only cares about profit.
The fishers are underpaid for their fish, poorly trained and do not have basic netting they require.

If industry agreed to put a penny per fish aside to deal with the problems they created we would be well on the way to restore the damage they have already done.

That very nominal payment would ensure that the Government stays out of our hobby. Instead industry faces the same Government intervention you see in Australia or evern worse.

You know it. I know it. The Government knows it. It is only a matter of time.
Wayne Ryan

 

[Caterham]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for the reply. Unfortunately, not a single question I asked was addressed.

I am not asking about LFS in your area. I am not asking about hobbyists in your area. I am not asking your opinion on what species are suitable.

What I would like to know is if you are in contact with the importers in your area that are landing the containers. LFS in your area may very well be purchasing from vendors in the United States of America and having them shipped in, thus making them entirely irrelevant as it relates to my questions.

If importers in your area are importing fish that are not collected in what you feel to be the correct fashion, per your own words, they should be put in gaol.

The only way to be certain you are dealing with Indo and Flip fish is to speak with the importer and ask to inspect the shipment. You have stated repeatedly that the importers are to blame, in your opinion.

How many of the LD3 containers landing in YOUR OWN HOMETOWN from the areas you are most concerned about are you inspecting? Are you speaking with the importers? Are you finding out the exporter contact information? What are the results of your tests? When will you be attempting to prosecute these folks IN YOUR HOMETOWN?

 

[clarionreef]

All those who make money from this trade can be considered as members of this industry.

So would that also include "reform" groups that have fed off the trade for so many years...... and left nothing but dirty dishes in the sink?
Or are they still immunue from responsibility despite the fact that they are among

those who make money from this trade

steve

 

[naesco]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for the reply. Unfortunately, not a single question I asked was addressed.

I am not asking about LFS in your area. I am not asking about hobbyists in your area. I am not asking your opinion on what species are suitable.

What I would like to know is if you are in contact with the importers in your area that are landing the containers. LFS in your area may very well be purchasing from vendors in the United States of America and having them shipped in, thus making them entirely irrelevant as it relates to my questions.

If importers in your area are importing fish that are not collected in what you feel to be the correct fashion, per your own words, they should be put in gaol.

The only way to be certain you are dealing with Indo and Flip fish is to speak with the importer and ask to inspect the shipment. You have stated repeatedly that the importers are to blame, in your opinion.

How many of the LD3 containers landing in YOUR OWN HOMETOWN from the areas you are most concerned about are you inspecting? Are you speaking with the importers? Are you finding out the exporter contact information? What are the results of your tests? When will you be attempting to prosecute these folks IN YOUR HOMETOWN?

I am very proud of the reeform efforts many LFS have made in my home town.
I often ask LFS where they get their fish. I know some of the importers that ship to LFS in Vancouver. Not all of them. Those that I know I judge as being reeform minded suppliers.
And no I have no intention of inspecting shipments.
We don't have a Lacey Act in Canada.
The reeform efforts industry has made here has been voluntary.
Now, answer my questions, please.

 

[naesco]

All those who make money from this trade can be considered as members of this industry.

So would that also include "reform" groups that have fed off the trade for so many years...... and left nothing but dirty dishes in the sink?
Or are they still immunue from responsibility despite the fact that they are among

those who make money from this trade

steve

Yes, I would Steve but lets move forward.

Wayne

 

[Caterham]

So to summarize, there are containers landing in YOUR OWN HOMETOWN from the countries that you claim are shipping fish that have been caught with cyanide and you do NOTHING.

As far as your questions, you know nothing about me. Why you would think I own a LFS in beyond me.

Warmest regards,

 

[clarionreef]

Hey!
Everyone....
I think we should stick to higher philosophy as no one will pass muster if we go on personal behavior.
This stuff cannot become a referendum on who is green and who is not.
Personal disputes localize the discussion to a level irrelevant to the rest .
They trivialize the thread, ruin its original intent and besides, who can ever know the background , the gossip and the particulars enough to make a fair judgement?

steve