Report from Australia

[clarionreef]

yes, I would Steve but lets move forward

FORWARD INTO THE UNKNOWN?
FORWARD...W/ WHAT?
FORWARD DOWN THE WRONG ROAD???
FORWARD WITH NEW CHARACTERS?
FORWRD WITH OUT LEARNING FROM THE PAST 20 YEARS OF REEFORM INC?

The best template for training cyanide fishers off poison was back in our history. Back before the internet.
I am moving backward to when we trained enough collectors to fill the South pacific with clean divers and managers.
I have to go back to recruit the better collector/trainers that were passed over in the green gravy train years of no-go reform.
History shows the way....and its back to the future.

 

[Caterham]

Steve,

My sincerest apologies. I did not mean to take the thread off track.

This is a wonderful thread full of meaningful information. The link to the articles from the outstanding scientist full of real facts is outstanding. If everyone was as bright as he is the world would be a much better place to live.

Enjoy Australia. Those guys love beer down there. Knock back a few for me please :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

If Wayne takes anything away from reading your post Steve I sure hope its

One size simply does not fit all despite the need for simple solutions among well meaning people....

I would add those very well meaning people can do far more harm then good and unfortunately to date they have failled to see ithat.

I agree with Steve's comments but not yours.

Please list the positive steps that industry has taken to preserve their industry and my hobby in the following areas.

1. What steps has industry taken to see a cyanide detection test (CDT) implemented in the US or import countries. Those 'well meaning people' are not going to allow the reefs and the critters that dwell within to be continued to be destroyed by the use of cyanide.

2. What steps has industry taken to impelment an unsuitable species list (USL)? Those 'welling meaning people' are not going to allow industry to bring tonnes of fish into the US that have no reasonable hope of success in hobbyist tanks. NOTHING JUSTIFIES THE USE OF CYANIDE

I will put to you that the answer to both 1. and 2. is INDUSTRY HAS DONE NOTHING.

As a result of industry's lack of committment to change their ways, there is no doubt in my mind that these well meaning people will bring in regulations similar to Australia's.

As a hobbyist I will be left with a few imported species like damsals and hobbyists will be left with trading brown frags with eachother.

Has a business reliant on the smooth flow of fish and coral from exporters YOU will be left with nothing.
Wayne Ryan

Um, WOW. I'm shaking my head so hard everything is blurry :lol:

Me, for cyanide?

Only left trading brown frags?

Your nuts! You do not understand the half of this and your actions have and will only serve harm. They will harm the very people that are trying for change and can actually bring it about. The best thing you could do would be to work on your very own countries laws.

What have you done on your own home front regarding your countries rampant import of cyanide caught fish? Your country is aiding the cyanide cartel, how can you sit by and watch this happen?

You speak very little of your own countries "dirty little secret". You could be the male Marry Middlebrooke of Canada. Expose it. Get your country to ban all Indo and PI fish where cyanide use is rampant? I say you blow that whistle so hard some mullets go flying! Go Canada!!!

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, you can't see the writting on the wall? It's clear as night and day. Didn't you get the hint Rome was crumbling when the Canadian dollar passed the US dollar? How many trillion has the US wasted on wars, sub prime, etc? The US has NO money to put into this, trust me. The gravy train here is drying up. Our roads are in need of vaste repair. Our electrical system is aging rapidly as is our water and waste systems. People are loosing their homes on a massive scale in some communities. We've got a town near here that is a near ghost town of NEW town homes. Do you think they'd put money into US F&W S or the WAR? Fixing our roads, US F & W S or the WAR? Electrical grid, US F & W S, or the WAR? How about, the WAR or the WARS?

 

[dizzy]

Wayne, you can't see the writting on the wall? It's clear as night and day. Didn't you get the hint Rome was crumbling when the Canadian dollar passed the US dollar? How many trillion has the US wasted on wars, sub prime, etc? The US has NO money to put into this, trust me. The gravy train here is drying up. Our roads are in need of vaste repair. Our electrical system is aging rapidly as is our water and waste systems. People are loosing their homes on a massive scale in some communities. We've got a town near here that is a near ghost town of NEW town homes. Do you think they'd put money into US F&W S or the WAR? Fixing our roads, US F & W S or the WAR? Electrical grid, US F & W S, or the WAR? How about, the WAR or the WARS?

Since Gresham has drug the war into this thread I would like to share a German editorial sent to me by Randy Goodlette: Subject: German Editorial

HERE IS A GERMAN EDITORIAL

If any of you still feel that this war on terror is a mistake, here is an opinion from an unexpected source. It's fascinating that this should come out of Europe . Mathias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily paper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.

This is a must-read by all Americans. History may well certify its correctness.

EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE

(Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)

A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, " Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives, as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany , then all the rest of Eastern Europe , where for decades, inhuman suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European Appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.

And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic Fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany ?

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists. One cannot help but recall Britain 's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler and declaring European "Peace in our time."

What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century -- a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness. Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for Anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against Democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China .

On the contrary -- we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans," as the World Champions of "tolerance," which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto School justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy -- because unlike almost all of Europe , Bush realizes what is at stake -- literally everything.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive."

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.

Appeasement?

Europe , thy name is Cowardice

---God Bless America---

 

[PeterIMA]

Caterham, There is at least one retailer importing net-caught fish from Bali, Indonesia to Vancouver. I have provided Naesco with this information, so that hobbyists there have an alternative to cyanide caught Indonesian fish that support a large portion of the MO trade.

Peter

 

[Jaime Baquero]

All those who make money from this trade can be considered as members of this industry.

So would that also include "reform" groups that have fed off the trade for so many years...... and left nothing but dirty dishes in the sink?
Or are they still immunue from responsibility despite the fact that they are among

those who make money from this trade

steve

It is true that a considerable amount of money has been spent on different initiatives tending to tackle the cyanide problem in the Philippines . It is also true that the results are not as expected, but it is also true that those mentioned in a previous post as members of the industry did not respond to signs sent by those working on the field trying to solve the problem. It is also true that the central government in the Philippines has failed to protect coral reef ecosystems. Chaos, corruption, lack of education, lack of action of the Filipino scientific community and many more negative conditions have been part of the problem.

It is also true that the MO industry has been feeding off the Filipino coral reefs for over 30 years without putting anything back.

I agree with the fact that some dishonest people made big money because of this environmental problem, but it is also true that honest people worked and are still working on the issue.

The Philippines and Indonesia are without doubt the countries where the cyanide problem is more critical. Without action of central governments we have seen that almost nothing can be accomplished.

We have seen the difference between Australia and the Philippines regarding the management of their natural resources. No doubt that the Australian way is much better.

jaime

 

[Anonymous]

What have you done on your own home front regarding your countries rampant import of cyanide caught fish? Your country is aiding the cyanide cartel, how can you sit by and watch this happen?

You speak very little of your own countries "dirty little secret". You could be the male Marry Middlebrooke of Canada. Expose it. Get your country to ban all Indo and PI fish where cyanide use is rampant? I say you blow that whistle so hard some mullets go flying! Go Canada!!!

Any answers Wayne?

 

[clarionreef]

It is true that a considerable amount of money has been spent on different initiatives tending to tackle the cyanide problem in the Philippines . It is also true that the results are not as expected,

The full time...full time salaried reform orgs were free to focus full time for years on this stuff.
Indeed , at least one of them passed itself off as a representative of the trade. They served as a sort of Johnny Cochran to the industry before various groups, agencies and funders.
They were given much...and much could have been expected.
They had enough time, attention and cash to not only change the trade for the good of all....but lessen the damage to coral reefs from destructive fish collecting.

The survival of the cyanide trade intact is their legacy and a reminder that all good intentions need to be not just thought out but carried out .
The WWF made...and stuck with the disasterous, internal personel decisions that sunk them.

Steve
PS. It may be noted that the WWF was more successful in its other ocean project....ie. the bestowing of environmental credentials and paperwork on Walmarts cheap, frozen shrimp product..

 

[Jaime Baquero]

It is important to underline that different programs developed in the Philippines included more than net training and fish collection. Other aspects such as community organizing and environmental education were part of those programs, and a considerable part of budgets went to cover that component. It is true that, and because of those programs, the situation in the communities is much better than before, they are organized and have good leaders result of those programs.

I am talking ONLYabout the situation in the Philippines where most of the programs were put in place.

My question is: Who is to blame in other countries where cyanide is used to collect ornamentals and attention hasn't been the same as in the Philippines?

How has been the response of the industry to solve the problems the trade of MO has in other developing countries? How has been that reaction regarding the cyanide problem in Indonesia?

Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Wayne, do you have a response for the questions asked of you?

Peace,

Chip

 

[naesco]

Sorry, I am Cuba bound.
Wayne

 

[Caterham]

LMAO! :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I am Cuba bound.
Wayne

I don't understand...you're Cuba-bound and are not available to post some 2-minute answers to questions people have asked of you, yet you're able to post about how your upcoming travel plans won't allow you to post the answers to the questions asked of you?

:roll:

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

Wow. I do not know how to respond. Cuba bound....uh.....OK......No time to talk :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

no...
Hes bound in Cuba ie. bound and gagged ] and can't get free to write.

They did this in real life...after suffering too long a sermon on how to run their fisheries! Something we...alas.... cannot do thru the internet .
PS.
Pssst Wayne! ....free speech in Cuba is still dangerous.