two missing in Tonga fish trade

[Anonymous]

Disgruntled people?
And that would be an inaccurate assessment as well.
Media can be used either way as you pointed out in the yellow tang hysteria so its not credible on its own. Effective perhaps...credible no.

Yeah, wasn't that one of the points I was making? It seems it would be better to effectively use the media instead of whatever it is that we are doing now.

As far as "the whole thing seen as dimissed as a few disgruntled people complaining on the internet..."
Thats the first time I've heard that one.

No it isn't. I have talked to you about it at least twice in the past. You didn't want to hear it then either.

Waiting for someone to pay someone to go poke around and write a story determines wether or not Rudy died needlessly?

Who said that?
The point may (note the may again) to get a broader audience to hear what's going on so maybe something will change.

The victims are mainly dead or have escaped from Tonga so going to Tonga will only be for part of the story anyway.
And all the exporters will lie anyway.

Who said anything about going to Tonga?
You could interview the guys with you and mail the tape, or you could write an article to try to reach an audience larger than this small forum, or you could create a podcast or a piece for NPR radio becasue you are actually with the guys. Perhaps you are doing something that we don't know about beyond helping getting the divers out of Tonga, or perhaps you know of something we don't know about going on on the down low, but it seems like we are at status quo again - saying 'it would be great if something were done about this' but there really don't seem to be any options on the table to actually do something.

BTW, one of the points of documentaries is to let the viewers make up their own minds regarding who is lying and who isn't. Documentaries can be a very powerful tool by simply presenting different sides of an issue.

This is a free flowing forum and for issues sharpened with regards to the aquarium trade, far ahead of and far more credible then the popular yellow [tang] press.

Is is a very small, poorly attended forum in a very large hobby/industry. Talking here is well and good, but does almost nothing to further any cause or ideal. And, a lot of people, people who don't talk to you, but talk to RDO staff, seem to write this forum off as a gripe fest of bitter people who don't want to actually get anything done other than complain.
Of course you think what you write is credible - you wrote it . For the masses however, what's written here, if its even read by many, is just more noise in an industry that seems to thrive on competing misinformation. As you allude above, for every story there is a counter, and it seems to only way to deal with that is to keep fighting.

I think if you had organized something, or helped others organize something on your behalf, we would have raised funds long ago to help get those guys out of Tonga when we heard about the reasons for the first death. As with the netting you wanted people to donate funds for with the EcoEZ program, I could have easily set up a webpage with info and donation options to try to raise money (and awareness) to get them out. However, the several times I have offered to do all that work I have been ignored or berated and I don't have much time for that anymore. I don't have the info, but you do, so others cant speak on your behalf. Others can, however, help you get heard. People care, but the information has to be given to them.

As I am sure you are going to now take what I wrote and somehow translate it into some kind of personal attack, which it isn't. I am on your side. I want to help. I just get frustrated at the lack of practical solutions or alternative solutions to the ones that get immediately shot down.

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Was Donny Joshua Lelekele one of the boatmen who went missing on the 29th of August?

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
Our objectives have already been largely achieved.
Jose and Eddie, MeMe and Renato are out of there and safe now.
It costs plenty and we were happy to do it.
Everyone involved has read this forum so the target audience I wanted to reach was reached.
Coral Kingdom and Jayhawk are in trouble now and Datelines fortunes have declined considerably since action against them began.
The divers are safe now and of all that has happened, only some has been mentioned here in our favorite forum.
The guilty parties have been revealed as requested and their shame is now public.
The reality has exceeded anything an article would have accomplished but it would be nice to see an article anyway.
Steve




The access to permits is heavily dependant upon relationships to high officials and power.
Talent in the trade or in running a business are not requirements to get one of the 5 permits. All you need is ambition, greed and a favor from some royal family member and you're in. So, the wrong kind of people get into this.
Believing its an easy, get rich quick trade, they are disappointed to see how hard the work really is. Then, when things get tough the true colors are revealed.
Tonga has had a non democratic system forever and its downtown area burned to the ground a few years back as the people non-violently revolted...[ except for the fires].
My wife who is Tongan puts it this way;
Many Tongan elites believe they are better then other people, especially Asians. Their racism and insensitivity to the Filipinos plight and their familes, although shocking to us is not to them.
Manipulating, stealing from and lying successfully to the divers is seen as proof of cleverness and superiority.
This is what I ment by malignant.
Jade...
Do the article!
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Nice post Steve!

 

[Jaime Baquero]

[
Who said anything about going to Tonga?
You could interview the guys with you and mail the tape, or you could write an article to try to reach an audience larger than this small forum, or you could create a podcast or a piece for NPR radio becasue you are actually with the guys. Perhaps you are doing something that we don't know about beyond helping getting the divers out of Tonga, or perhaps you know of something we don't know about going on on the down low, but it seems like we are at status quo again - saying 'it would be great if something were done about this' but there really don't seem to be any options on the table to actually do something.

BTW, one of the points of documentaries is to let the viewers make up their own minds regarding who is lying and who isn't. Documentaries can be a very powerful tool by simply presenting different sides of an issue.

I think it would be very productive to bring someone as Meme Purgatorio to NA to present the point of view of fish collectors not only from the Philippines but from collection points such as Tonga. Meme has been in this business since the late 80's and knows perfectly how fish collectors have been abused since the beginning. There are many events related to this industry happening in NA and Europe.

The voice and face of the collectors is something that hasn't been included in those events.

Meme Purgatorio would be the ideal candidate. He has enough material and knowledge to make a great presentation...we can help him out.

Jaime

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime
Besides getting them out of harms way ...they are also now at liberty to speak.
I think MeMe would make for the most interesting talk at any MACNA. I proposed it once to the selection committee last year but was turned down.
He has had a role or a ring side seat at a hundred happenings that most forum-ers wonder about.

There are two seperate issues in Tonga that I see.

1. The diver safety issue ; pressuring them to knowingly dangerous depths routinely. They need a serious do and don't sheet on that. [ not all exporters have been irresponsible]

2. The manipulation of foreign divers salaries, tickets and work visa to force them to dive deep or stay too long against their will. [ not all exporters have been guilty of thiese practices]

The event of the past years events has evacuated Tonga of its top divers but new, more naive cannon fodder is being recruited to fill their positions. An imported divers bill of rights and policies and procedure can be proposed, for example, a checklist of how to handle things vis a vis contracts, work visas, ticket expiring, salaries etec.
Wherewithall to resign and return home if neccesary is critical to avoid the holding against their will syndrome that occurs. This can spread thruout the Philippines as a must-be for each new recruit.

Mind you, these issues are germain to foreign divers only.
If a local boy dies in a diving accident there is hell to pay and the shock waves are great. if a local diver is cheated, he has a whole family clan to back him up.
The aloneness and legal helplessness of the Filipinos has left them at the mercy of people who take that as a wonderful thing.
The dealers bring this upon themselves and need to behave as civilized people or just utilize and train their own local divers. To many this may seem an an option but to this particular class of exporters, bringing in instant, point and shoot fish collectors has been the answer as they know so little about training, teaching or providing good examples.

I appreciate this forum as a sounding board to refine ideas and options of reform. The airing out of notions as these help provide for direction for futher progress and understanding..
Sincerely,
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

People,
Upon arrival in PNG of Jose, one of the divers that came up to find no boat on an offshore collecting trip.....we have learned that collecting gear and boat parts have been found at the dive site.
The site was far offshore and the rocky seamount broke surface at low tide.
It is now thought that on that day, the seas became very rough and a boat may have broke anchor and drifted into the washing machine of big, churning waves crashing upon the rocks.
The second boat may have tried to save it and got caught up in the malestrom.
The two must've had their fate linked together as a barrier net, a poker and an engine cap were found lodged in the coral. The area is very deep on the other side of the seamount from where the divers were and the boats may have been sunken quickly and descended to depths beyond 200 feet.

The terrible upshot is that Tony of a wife and 2 children and Sione of a wife and 9 are lost in the sea forever now.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Steve,

Is there any way to help those families. We can collect some money.

Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

I've been asking the same question since it happened

 

[clarionreef]

Guys,
The divers and the info are more accessible now.
There are two divers down, and two boat captains.

I'll try to get the pertinent info. for you.