tank mod

[THEDLO]

ok so here is a "blue print" of my tank currently and what i want to do to it.
i need some brain storming input/suggestions. i dont have much space in my sump, and i would like to improve on the sorry excuse i have for a fuge, as well as make space for my new skimmer.

also i will be upgrading my pumps from 2 mag 9.5s to a quiteone 14000. with a flow rate of 3600+ gph so i plan on changing the outputs to overflows as well to compensate for the greater turnover.

*** heres the final product, er sort of, im going to change the plumbing to pvc eventually, but hey all works right now.

 

[coralcruze]

Hey David,

It was nice talking to you today... This system would work fine as designed. However, I was looking into your plans for the plumbing system further and based on what you wrote here and what you mentioned to me today this is what I would suggest:

1. look up beananimal failsafe overflow on RC as you would greatly benefit from this design. You will come to know that standalone durso's are not only inefficient but also they are unreliable, not to mention loud. However, the biggest thing you would benefit from this system is this... water flowing through a given pipe diameter thats pushing air behind it will not give you nearly the same amount of flow as the same diameter pipe that is in full siphon mode. In other words, a pipe that does not pull air but only water will give you a tremendouse amount of flow through that same pipe diameter. I set up this system (well a bit modified) on my setup that you saw and its really the way to go.

2. as I mentioned I love the spray bar idea but consider the position of the lowest pipe in your system as in a power outage situation water will seek the lowest level. check valves are good but they do fail so get ones that can be maintained and do so yearly or better yet bi-yearly.

3. Perhaps relocating some equipment to where its better suited might yeald more space. I'm not sure how big your skimmer is but perhaps it could somehow fit in the sump and moving the refugium out of there might me a good idea. I like the idea of having a seperate refugium on the upper right of your diagram and perhaps by moving the skimmer out of the bottom right and into the sump that would give you an opportunity to have that tank be a salt mixing vat for water changes or even a top off water system might be cool.

In any even I like the diagram... refine it and it will lead to a great final setup I'm sure. I look forward to seeing the developement of your tank.

 

[KathyC]

Not sure that I see the spray bar in there, but if it is at a low point, simply drill 2 (1/8") holes (in case on gets clogged) at the top of the pipe feeding the spray bar - just below the water line. If you have a power failure, they will act as a siphon break.
My first tank ran like this for a couple of years - worked great

I do have a different question for you - why are you looking to run so many GPH through your sump? Heavy flow is best left to be contained in the DT through the use of powerheads (like a Vortech). You will be evaporating a huge amount of water at that flow rate, and your skimmer won't have a chance to grab much doc as it goes flying by.

Just my 2 cents

 

[THEDLO]

@kathy
thats where i want most of the flow, in the DT, thats y im using the spray bar and additional spickets, but if im going to be putting that much more water into the system then i would need to increase my overflow capacity no? i want to avoid power heads, i want the front and sides of the tank clear of equipment, ideally. good idea on the holes on the spray bar.

@ben
got me scared now, i never had a problem with the style of my overflows (they are a bit loud ur right), but now im worried about what might happen.

quick ? what ur saying about the plumbing is that just because i certain dimension is rated for 1500, for example, doesnt mean its moving that amount?

yea agreed one that 3rd point, moving all the equipment to the current sump would be better. after seeing ur setup and thinking ill prob do some more adjustments to placement etc.

 

[masterswimmer]

I would normally not get involved with your blueprint, but you specifically asked for, 'some brain storming input/suggestions'.

Unfortunately I have more issues with your redesign than with your original setup.
1- What purpose does the redesigned tank underneath your DT serve?
2- You've added an incredible amount of pvc plumbing and IMO haven't increased efficiency at all.
3- I would add the VorTech's in the DT. Two MP40w's can simulate wave action in synchronization.
4- The amount of flow (potentially 3600 gph) won't help the system by running it through a sump as much as running about 1500 gph through a sump designed properly.

I can't list more things to improve on because quite honestly and trying to be as diplomatic as possible, I'd start over from scratch. I apologize for being so blunt.

Russ

 

[coralcruze]

@kathy
thats where i want most of the flow, in the DT, thats y im using the spray bar and additional spickets, but if im going to be putting that much more water into the system then i would need to increase my overflow capacity no? i want to avoid power heads, i want the front and sides of the tank clear of equipment, ideally. good idea on the holes on the spray bar.

@ben
got me scared now, i never had a problem with the style of my overflows (they are a bit loud ur right), but now im worried about what might happen.

quick ? what ur saying about the plumbing is that just because i certain dimension is rated for 1500, for example, doesnt mean its moving that amount?

yea agreed one that 3rd point, moving all the equipment to the current sump would be better. after seeing ur setup and thinking ill prob do some more adjustments to placement etc.

do a google search on daniel bernouli and the "bernouli principle"... basically if you are pushing a liquid through a pipe and there is a gas behind it, that liquid does not pass through the pipe as effectively as pushing a liquid at full siphon (no gas). so say you take a 1" pipe and try and drain water through it. air rushes in behind the liquid slowing the flow and in the process making lots of noise. eliminate the air and you can push much more flow through that same 1" pipe. at the same time you can control the flow way better with this system thasn you can a very unpredictable gravity fed air and water mixture. so the short answer is YES you will not be able to push as much flow through a pipe if you are pushing air in behind it. remember water is uncompresible and air is.

another way to do it would require lager diameter pipe which would allow a waterfall efect inside the pipe. as long as the water overflows and sticks to the inside of the piupe wall its not drawing in air but was soon as it seperates (increased flow) from the pipe wall it will connect with the water on the other side and draw in air behind it.

The only other thing I would add is stepping back and thinking about your design should be the normal process to a sound design. in that sence I would ask do you really need elaborate and even spray bar system in a reef. If you are keeping delicate fish like pipefish or other slow swimers, than yeah go for it. However if you are building this system just to have even flow I would have to ask why? keep in mind one other very important plumbing concept when designing your system. that is head pressure. head pressure is created when you add any kind of resistance to a pump. You would be amazed how much a simple 90 deg. elbow increases head pressure on a pump. I wonder how much head is created by your spray bars. so if you are starting with 3600 GPH... you may only see 3-400 GPH coming out in the tank. don't forget that head pressure is also created by the shear weight of the water column inside a typical pipe. so here too a pupmp say 5 foot below its highest point would see 5 foot of head on that pump. at 5 feet a 3600 GPH pump is no longer delivering 3600 GPH. see what I'm saying? take all the elbows, hight, and spraybars and you will loose alot of flow. don't let all of this or anyone discourage you. trust me if there is a will there is a way. In other words if you really want to design something, it may not work at first but finetune the design and you WILL get it to work. hope that helped.

BTW, there are some good head pressure tables that you can google that will give you an idea how much water you could push with a given flow ect.

 

[coralcruze]

BTW kathy's idea of drilling some holes in the pipe is a great idea as a siphon break in case of a power failure. just be sure you clean out those holes from detritus or coraline and you are good to go.

 

[THEDLO]

@russ
aw com'on russ no holding back. i gotta learn no? my goals for this "mod" are 1 better flow behind the rocks, and 2 a better/bigger sump system. the one i have is kinda small and is hard to work with. but i dont want to pull it out, just add to it. i would love to have a dedicated fuge, where i have it now, its taking up some valuable real estate i dont need to have a pump of that caliber but one powerful enough to support the flow i want.

@ben
yea im aware of head pressure, i didn't calculate completely, but that impact should be less then normal cause the pump is a high head pump. fortunately this is just the planing stage so ive got time to adjust/remove things. as for the overflows, i have a LOT of reading to do.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

Have to agree with prior posts. Your goals are great but your methods are all wrong. Blasting water through your sump only serves to well, blast water through your sump. Increasing flow in the tank is never the job of the return pump. The return will determine the flow through the sump and if the water isn't left to dwell in there long enough it just won't get filtered properly. Smaller pumps for the return and larger more efficient pumps in the display are what you need to do. Keep your system as simple as possible and maintenance won't be such a pain that you will avoid doing it. The bernouli principle is great but you aren't running a sewage treatment plant or building a public aquarium, it's a 120g and a durso installed properly will be more than adequate and quiet.

Get some vortechs, or korallias if you don't want to spend that kind of money and add a larger fuge to the sump. Take the time and headache we just saved you and stare at the tank...

 

[THEDLO]

well i want to add a fuge, thats the main thing behind the change, the plumbing i figured id do it at the same time. however i am seeing the ineffectiveness of the high turnover rate, but id really like to have the spay bars to eliminate the dead spots at the back of the tank. i have 2 koralias currently, as well as a rio power head to help with the circulation.

and i do plenty of staring, i have a couch right in front of the tank as well as a rolly chair

 

[seldin]

Masterswimmer and LFSMarineGuy have a great point.

The concept is you don't want to put a lot of high flow from display tank to sump, etc.

Instead, run the vortech's. You will not have high microbubbles, etc. Much simpler and these pumps will give you nice wave action. The more complicated, the more likely hood of problems.

 

[THEDLO]

ok so after taking into consideration the valid points all of u have brought up, this is what im thinking, skiping the spay bar idea and keeping simple, but keeping the adjacent fuge, and (at the moment) spare tank. this would solve the space issue, as for the vortech pumps not sure if that would take care of the dead spots.

 

[masterswimmer]

Now you're making progress. The sump design is much better. I wouldn't change anything on it. The right hand overflow I'm assuming goes into a filter sock, then you can just put a lot of LR rubble into that area of the sump.

The one change I would make is with the fuge. Having a separate fuge is perfect. That's actually an ideal way to go. However, I would try to raise the rim of the fuge to be above the rim of the DT. This way you can have a small minijet type of pump in the DT to pump tank water into the fuge and have gravity return the fuge flow to the DT. Drilling the fuge up at the top is easy to do.

Great job on the redesign. I applaud you.

Russ

 

[THEDLO]

hmm good point on the fuge hight. what part were u saying to drill tho?

on quick question, where my skimmer is should the flow there be more or less then the other side, i forgot to mention that as of now on the left side i have a pump that feeds my uv sterilizer, and it comes out on the right side. so when the water level drops its not at the return pumps but on the left side.

 

[masterswimmer]

hmm good point on the fuge hight. what part were u saying to drill tho? If your fuge tank has one of those black plastic rims, drill it directly underneath that.

on quick question, where my skimmer is should the flow there be more or less then the other side, i forgot to mention that as of now on the left side i have a pump that feeds my uv sterilizer, and it comes out on the right side. so when the water level drops its not at the return pumps but on the left side.

You can split the flow between the two overflows evenly, as long as you're not using a ridiculously high flow pump.

See red above.

First, I'm not a fan of using UV 24/7, but you might be. I believe in using UV when there's a problem. If you're intent on hooking up and using the UV 24/7, I would set the feed pump in the right chamber and if you have room in the baffles, I'd put the return line in the baffles.

Russ

edit: You also need to find out what the optimum water height is for most efficient running for your skimmer. 8"-9" is normally a safe bet.

 

[THEDLO]

the fuge and the bottom tank are being made by a client of mine with acrylic. so i can drill any where i guess.

here is the skimmer i have, i read through the manual and it doesnt specify the water level. its a recirculating skimmer tho.

yea im going to change the way the uv is connected, but a pro to this is that when the water level drops im not getting more bubbles in the system. im currently finishing my auto top off, so ive been going from my filter to my tank 3 times a day, fortunatly i work from home so im on top of it.

 

[coralcruze]

Have to agree with prior posts. Your goals are great but your methods are all wrong. Blasting water through your sump only serves to well, blast water through your sump. Increasing flow in the tank is never the job of the return pump. The return will determine the flow through the sump and if the water isn't left to dwell in there long enough it just won't get filtered properly. Smaller pumps for the return and larger more efficient pumps in the display are what you need to do. Keep your system as simple as possible and maintenance won't be such a pain that you will avoid doing it. The bernouli principle is great but you aren't running a sewage treatment plant or building a public aquarium, it's a 120g and a durso installed properly will be more than adequate and quiet.

Get some vortechs, or korallias if you don't want to spend that kind of money and add a larger fuge to the sump. Take the time and headache we just saved you and stare at the tank...

the bernouli principal is basic phisics that was derived in 1750's it holds true to sewage treatment plants as well as small 1/4" tubing. Those that don't grasp this concept or knock it... well they just dont get it

 

[coralcruze]

I would change one thing in your sump... that is the location of the skimmer. It should be on the side with the baffels so it reduces or eliminates micro bubbles. The other thing to consider in the future is a custom sump that will deliver both the right and the left side overflow through the skimmer compartment. the right side as shown never gets skimmed. I prefer to send all of the tank water through the skimmer compartment. however, the pump feeding the skimmer should be lower flow so the skimmer wont catch every drop the first time.

 

[seldin]

Coralcruze,

Excellent point. I later retrofitted my skimmer to feed directly from a PVC pipe.

 

[THEDLO]

yea i figured that would be a problem. cause in theory it would only be skimming less then half of the water that goes by