Seems the researchers feel the fish were transported via the "buoyant " eggs ........If the eggs floated on top of the water as you suggest they would be subjected to the direction of the winds , not the gulf stream . Buoyant usually means suspended within the upper water column. How many potential baby lionfish would there be in one clutch of eggs ? I mean If the one and a million chance that a set of lionfish spawn under an oil tanker or box container ship ....... while the ship was filling its ballast for the return {empty } trip back to the USA ? Can their Laval survive in the hull for weeks? Months? Many species Have made the trip. Perhaps the same reason lionfish seem to establish themselves in the Atlantic seaboard more readily them other MOs also enables these fish to survive longer duration's in a Closed ship hull? [/quote] We do know that the adult lionfish can survive poor water quality in aquariums........Why not the babys . has any one evr tested the water quality of ballast water ?
80 Lion Fish caught off NC coast in less than two weeks
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Kalk,
Container ships generally do not return to the states empty of cargo and full of ballast water. We are the great consumers, not south east Asia.
There may be other ships coming in full of ballast water so I will not write that off fully.
C-Quest spent a considerable amount of time, effort, and money to raise many species of fish including lion fish. We were successful with some 52 species of fish and not successful with many others of which we often had eggs and larvae but could not get them through the larval stage. I know that there have been some species of fish that have traveled in ballast water, most for short trips through the Panama canal. I really doubt the ability of a p. volitan egg to hatch, survive as larvae, and metamorphasize in a ships ballast water. The distance at which they could possibly be picked up and the time needed for the trip just rule out the possibility. Possibly a small metamorphasized juvinile could make the long trip. Possibly aliens came down and picked a few up for study and dumped them back in the atlantic.
I think that a much more realistic possibility is that multiple volitans were dumped by hobbyists or shop / wholesale operations and they have bred and as stated the bouyant eggs have worked their way up the eastern seaboard with fish settling out along the way growing to adults, spawning, and allowing the next generation of eggs to make it further up the coast. It will stop when the water gets cold enough in the northern reaches to kill the fish. Maybe a fish did come in with ballast water but personally I think that the aliens are much more likely.
Dave
Container ships generally do not return to the states empty of cargo and full of ballast water. We are the great consumers, not south east Asia.
There may be other ships coming in full of ballast water so I will not write that off fully.
C-Quest spent a considerable amount of time, effort, and money to raise many species of fish including lion fish. We were successful with some 52 species of fish and not successful with many others of which we often had eggs and larvae but could not get them through the larval stage. I know that there have been some species of fish that have traveled in ballast water, most for short trips through the Panama canal. I really doubt the ability of a p. volitan egg to hatch, survive as larvae, and metamorphasize in a ships ballast water. The distance at which they could possibly be picked up and the time needed for the trip just rule out the possibility. Possibly a small metamorphasized juvinile could make the long trip. Possibly aliens came down and picked a few up for study and dumped them back in the atlantic.
I think that a much more realistic possibility is that multiple volitans were dumped by hobbyists or shop / wholesale operations and they have bred and as stated the bouyant eggs have worked their way up the eastern seaboard with fish settling out along the way growing to adults, spawning, and allowing the next generation of eggs to make it further up the coast. It will stop when the water gets cold enough in the northern reaches to kill the fish. Maybe a fish did come in with ballast water but personally I think that the aliens are much more likely.
Dave
given the life habits of Pterois, i'd bet that 20 pairs only released to the same locale every yr would be enough to start lionfish off to a secure foothold, to say nothin of the probable actual amounts done by 'hobbyists' over a far wider area
they're a fast/fecund reproducer, very hardy, and a true apex predator
they're a fast/fecund reproducer, very hardy, and a true apex predator
Kalk, you give me a nice laugh once and a while. The stream runs about 2.5 knots at the surface. There are some wind forces, sure, but the stream is not just a sub-surface current. The eggs are not floating for more than a few days anyway. The larvae surely aren't floating.
How do you think the juvs. are getting to NY in the summer? Or for that matter any other tropical fish (FL species) that are carried up to Long Island for the summer? They travel the stream. There is no way to know, as of now, what the population structure of these fish is. They might be self-recruiting in NC or the FL populations might be supplying the NC populations. The GS is the perfect dispersion method. Good bet is that the NC population is supplying the NY summer juvs.
I will not argue with you that dive shops might be assisting in the introduction. That has happened in the HI islands with lemon peel angels. However I don't think they started the problem. I have heard that they are not too happy about the attempts to remove them.
Invasive species don't need a huge starting population to get a foothold. The idea that you must have more than a small group is just crazy.
How do you think the juvs. are getting to NY in the summer? Or for that matter any other tropical fish (FL species) that are carried up to Long Island for the summer? They travel the stream. There is no way to know, as of now, what the population structure of these fish is. They might be self-recruiting in NC or the FL populations might be supplying the NC populations. The GS is the perfect dispersion method. Good bet is that the NC population is supplying the NY summer juvs.
I will not argue with you that dive shops might be assisting in the introduction. That has happened in the HI islands with lemon peel angels. However I don't think they started the problem. I have heard that they are not too happy about the attempts to remove them.
Invasive species don't need a huge starting population to get a foothold. The idea that you must have more than a small group is just crazy.
Does anyone know if the NY lion fish make it through the winter? Or is it a one way trip? The fish cant swim back against the stream . I am mostly just stirring the pot here.......But the idea that one good Ballast event could bring about millions of baby fish larvae is not totally out of the realm. It only takes ONE event. There are ships that fill up and return with only or mostly Ballast water. There are one way exports like autos and refined oil products in which the ship is designed to carry only cars or petroleum. Have we truly ruled out this possibility?
but of course
I don't really buy ballast water for transporting fish larvae around. Could be, but I find it hard to believe that they would last in a dark ship hull for several days or weeks. Inverts, now that is a lot different. I bet money that is why we get EUs Stenopus here in Florida and Brazil. They don't need light to feed and can go a while without any food, unlike any fish larvae I know.
I would think there could be plenty of Zoo plankton and and such to feed on for a while ........ Does anyone Know what happens to the lionfish eggs if placed in the total night time like a ship ballast? Someone else suggested that in four days the eggs hatch .......I would think the time frame might be phototropic or such ........Does lack of daylight extent the hatch out time ?Perhaps indefinitely?
One-way, they die in the winter as with all the other tropicals that show up there.
These are really good questions. Not sure how many studies address these directly, however fish larvae need a small amount of light to see their prey. They are visual feeders; most crustacean larvae are not visual feeders. I don't think they need light to hatch out, just to feed. Once they hatch, they would only have a very short amount of time to find food before starvation sets in. Could be hours, or days depending on temp and the species. All these factors combined it would take a very abnormal fish species to make it for more than a very short trip.
andy
Keeping fish eggs in the dark will not extend their viability for long, hours or a few days is the maximum. They sometimes will not hatch without the proper photo period but it does not extend the viability they just die rather than hatch.
If it was possible to raise volitan larvae by simply putting the eggs in several thousand gallons of fresh sea water and keeping them in the dark for a few weeks then we would have plenty of tank reared volitans on the market. That method is much easier and cheaper than all of the effort and money that has been spent in trying to get the larvae past metamorphasis in captive tanks. The larvae depend on food in the form of small creatures who themselves need photo reliant algaes to live. Even if they could find the correct bugs to eat without a light source to see them by the bugs themselves would die in a matter of hours without their source of photo reliant foods.
If it was possible to raise volitan larvae by simply putting the eggs in several thousand gallons of fresh sea water and keeping them in the dark for a few weeks then we would have plenty of tank reared volitans on the market. That method is much easier and cheaper than all of the effort and money that has been spent in trying to get the larvae past metamorphasis in captive tanks. The larvae depend on food in the form of small creatures who themselves need photo reliant algaes to live. Even if they could find the correct bugs to eat without a light source to see them by the bugs themselves would die in a matter of hours without their source of photo reliant foods.
I would venture to think that the inside of an older ship ballast might actually be not unlike in an aquarium reef sump. With a periotic exchange of ocean water {the hull is never actually empty } does the bottom of the ballast if constantly submerged in ocean water actually become colonized like aquacultured liverock? We all know what happens to the underside of a ship exposed to the open ocean . Do cryptic creatures become residents inside the ballast? I do know that the ship during heavy seas actully adds or discharges water during the trip {kinda like a waterchange in a new reef tank }
Kalk,
The larvae will not have any method of transferring venom. It may be present in cellular form that develops as the larvae will metamorphasize into a fish. I have seen post larvae collected in crest nets as they were settling out on the reef and they have the spine structure in place but the spines are very flexible. We handled them with no worry of being punctured. Whether the venom was present then I do not know for sure, I would guess that it would be present in small amounts. The post larvae that we collected did not have the adult coloring yet but did have adult shape and spine structure.
Dave
The larvae will not have any method of transferring venom. It may be present in cellular form that develops as the larvae will metamorphasize into a fish. I have seen post larvae collected in crest nets as they were settling out on the reef and they have the spine structure in place but the spines are very flexible. We handled them with no worry of being punctured. Whether the venom was present then I do not know for sure, I would guess that it would be present in small amounts. The post larvae that we collected did not have the adult coloring yet but did have adult shape and spine structure.
Dave
Kalkbreath":1ivxu01v said:
That has largely been ruled out as the source for the lionfish and other Indo-Pacific marine ornamentals now found off Florida and the US East Coast. There are no real shipping routes from the source areas of these fish to the US East Coast. There are even Red Sea species now found off Florida. Further, if these species were coming in with ballast water we would expect to be finding other Indo-Pacific species besides marine ornamentals. There haven't been.
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