[bad coffee]

Also, Steve, can you outline how this collection for netting will be different from all other 'net collections' in the past.(Mary's, Reefcentral's, MAC, ect.) How can we be sure all the money we donate is going towards the nets?

How is the netting going to be doled out to the villages? How do we know the villages will continue to use them after the training sessions?
(I heard the answers once when I had dinner with Steve. I'm posting the questions for the benefit of the forum)

And just to clarify, MR itself hasn't agreed to donate/be part of the donations. Currently it's just the few members that can see what benefit there will be to the reefs.

Mike, if you doubt Steve's intentions, Do a search on reefs.org for the user 'cortez marine' make sure you check the "industry behind the hobby" forum.

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[Slamajamajama]

i think that this Utopian process is admirable, and im sure benificial for the capture and SALE of fish/corals from that region. I also feel as its been driven home is the fact that your dedication to this is honest.
but my question is ..
why? why disturb this environment for money.
whos making the profits and plz dont try to tell me the villagers will be reaping most of the rewards of this. (i kno none of my business) my point is is it worth the impact of this prestine reef...(even my greatest efforts when i hike to "leave no trace" is almost impossible), even with the best of harvesting techniques..i may have to go, as suggested to review the bigger body of work on this...but with your copy paste of paragraphs of err ummm info to every question I wonder if MR/MR members are donating to a time share ....instead we should be donating to a marine biologists that is ACTUALLY is doing research to rebuild wat the world has already lost.

why cant we get on board with that instead of worrying if our pockets (vendors) get filled ($) or our tanks have these exotic species...believe me when the almighty dollar is involved the lines get severely blurred

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[clarionreef]

1) How and who the surveys and thrice yearly monitorings will take place. What is being checked for? How is it being checked for? etc.
The survey team is comprised of...three Filipinos from the old MAC/REEFCHECK experience....and two from the University in Port Moresby who are also working within Fisheries.
They survey the reefs for fish and invert counts w/ 100 meter transect lines prior to collection...then they keep track of the same reefs three times a year to monitor impacts.

2) How will the business structure be set up so local villages and fishermen do reap the benefits?
We start the pricing structure off to insure that the divers prices are fair in the world market sense...ie similar to Bali and Filipino pricing. THIS WAY BUYERS CANNOT BE CAVALIER AND EXPLOITIVE W/ THE PRICING TO DIVERS.
Since the fish abundance is so high in their areas and since they don't run long range multi-day boat trips burning thru gasoline all day, they get to keep a better % then other divers. The lack of killing coral as a methodology will keep the fishes near home for good and we will finally get to see the sustainable refilling of fishes that many of us already have in cleaner collecting places.
Fishers will elect their own spokesman and these guys will interact more with the buyers in Port Moresby DIRECTLY. We will teach these guys all they need to know to market to Moresby buyers without middlemen....giving them the midlemens cut. Filipinos would be so jealous!
THEN AGAIN, FILIPINOS RUINED THEIR NEARBY REEFS W/ CROWBARS AND CYANIDE IMPOVERISHING THEMSELVES FUTHER.

3) Why is it so important for hobbyists to be involved from the outset? In what way did leaving hobbyists out of prior reform efforts help doom them to failure? RD
As I have said before, the other groups left em out and owed em nothing. They also ignored em and engineered a huge history of mistakes that aquarium savy people wouldn't make.
I AM AQUARIUM PEOPLE 100%...but being from a Democratic tradition, I think the more witnesses and participants you have in an important endeavor, the better.
You always need some peers around and people of equal intelligence and similar experience as possible to avoid the excesses of absolute power and detachment.

[Slamajamajama]

Quote: Originally Posted by clarionreef 1) How and who the surveys and thrice yearly monitorings will take place. What is being checked for? How is it being checked for? etc. The survey team is comprised of...three Filipinos from the old MAC/REEFCHECK experience....and two from the University in Port Moresby who are also working within Fisheries. They survey the reefs for fish and invert counts w/ 100 meter transect lines prior to collection...then they keep track of the same reefs three times a year to monitor impacts. 2) How will the business structure be set up so local villages and fishermen do reap the benefits? We start the pricing structure off to insure that the divers prices are fair in the world market sense...ie similar to Bali and Filipino pricing. THIS WAY BUYERS CANNOT BE CAVALIER AND EXPLOITIVE W/ THE PRICING TO DIVERS. Since the fish abundance is so high in their areas and since they don't run long range multi-day boat trips burning thru gasoline all day, they get to keep a better % then other divers. The lack of killing coral as a methodology will keep the fishes near home for good and we will finally get to see the sustainable refilling of fishes that many of us already have in cleaner collecting places. Fishers will elect their own spokesman and these guys will interact more with the buyers in Port Moresby DIRECTLY. We will teach these guys all they need to know to market to Moresby buyers without middlemen....giving them the midlemens cut. Filipinos would be so jealous! THEN AGAIN, FILIPINOS RUINED THEIR NEARBY REEFS W/ CROWBARS AND CYANIDE IMPOVERISHING THEMSELVES FUTHER. 3) Why is it so important for hobbyists to be involved from the outset? In what way did leaving hobbyists out of prior reform efforts help doom them to failure? RD As I have said before, the other groups left em out and owed em nothing. They also ignored em and engineered a huge history of mistakes that aquarium savy people wouldn't make. I AM AQUARIUM PEOPLE 100%...but being from a Democratic tradition, I think the more witnesses and participants you have in an important endeavor, the better. You always need some peers around and people of equal intelligence and similar experience as possible to avoid the excesses of absolute power and detachment.

im still not all warm and fuzzy about all this, but I wish you the best of luck on this venture...Happy New Year.

[Chiefmcfuz]

Quote: Originally Posted by GreshamH And how pray tell was that not on topic? Topic is the project is it not? Do you want Steve to post his stuff for replies in other threads? I am not goint to start a thread to reply to post in another thread, that's a great way for it never to be seen or replied to.

I was not directing my request to everyone in the thread. It is a simple request, those who are making this thread go in directions that are off topic should keep it on track by directing their comments in another thread. I think the conversation is a good one and it should stay on track. Thanks for your input good luck with your endeavors.

Again lets keep the thread on track please.

[clarionreef]

Also, Steve, can you outline how this collection for netting will be different from all other 'net collections' in the past.
The right combination of handnets and barrier nets are never given out together at commercially competent trainings.
Why?
Besides casting aspersions on people who were in charge of doing it wrong in the past, how else can I answer?
How can you answer for the obvious reason why commercial field training by non field people doesn't ever work out to well?

Since they did even the basics worng, where does one start?
I am not them and will be the only training director who is also a commercial fish collector and critic of the past 20 year tradition of fake trainings by unqualified people..

How is the netting going to be doled out to the villages? How do we know the villages will continue to use them after the training
sessions?
Nettings are disbursed after the classroom instruction, usually under a mango tree. We cut and sew them up as a part of the training. As they have no other fish collecting tradition and because we get to them first, they have nothing inferior to fall back on.
Net collecting catches more fish then cyanide. This fact alone commands allegience. To city people and incompetent, would-be and wannabie collectors of fish, cyanide seems more efficient. Like vise grips are more efficient tools to repair a carbuerator...until you get a real set of wrenches.
There is not a backsliding experience when divers are trained right and supplied right from the beginning.
There is a backsliding experience when the divers are trained poorly and not supplied with the nets and/or the right nets..
I cannot make this traditional mistake.

[clarionreef]

why disturb this environment for money.
Aready answered this. The fishers work their own areas already. Now, since many of their larger fish are wiped out in their areas, tropicals are in unnatural abundance at times. Tropicals are the best resource these people have to work with.
whos making the profits and plz dont try to tell me the villagers will be reaping most of the rewards of this.
Most? Did you just sneak in the word most of the profits?
Profit works it way up the chain and may reside at every level.
First divers, then buyers ie. exporters, then airlines [sigh], then importers, then retailers then you walk in the door.

i may have to go, as suggested to review the bigger body of work on this...
What? And not just shoot from the hip?
but with your copy paste ...
Huh? where did that come from?

of paragraphs of err ummm info to every question I wonder if MR/MR members are donating to a time share ....
and that?
instead we should be donating to a marine biologists...
There are heaps all over the place studying nudibranchs and what not. You want study now? Not surveys or trainings?

that is ACTUALLY is doing research to rebuild wat the world has already lost.
Research into "wat it lost?"
???

why cant we get on board with that instead of worrying if our pockets (vendors) get filled ($) or our tanks have these exotic species...believe me when the almighty ..
?????????????
OK Gresham...ya got me !
Its you writing this stuff right??
Comon, fess up!
ROFL!
Steve

[House of Laughter]

Steve,

All I have to say is that MY money can go to you shopping at the malls in PNG for whatever you want - go crazy with yourself and enjoy it.

It's plain as day to me how this works -

US - or - Commercial - I say US first and let the villagers make money, exporters make money, vendors make money and reefers get the animals in a healthy way so that less die off in our tanks further creating a demand for more - better than "leaving the pristine reef" to someone else for blasting the $h1t out of them and mass exporting, exploiting the local resources and getting it to us (as reefers not vendors) in an unhealthy way.

Questions should be answered, yes, and you've done well for this reefer -

there is talk of a visit from MR members, I'd join you in the lap of luxury you'll be living while there in a heartbeat - please send us pictures of the lavish accommodations you have while completing this project.

Good luck

House

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[ellebelle]

Steve:

A point of clarification -

Are you one going to one of the exporters of fish from PNG?

[clarionreef]

"Are you one going to one of the exporters of fish from PNG?"
Why, let me think....er...no.
I may be called upon to consult however between them and the villages.
My heart is w/ the villages and not the business side. But, I do relize that the business side will not provide income for villagers if the sustained business activity is not there.
Steve