[clarionreef]

Hi Guys
I sent the info to Brett already.
Thanks for the help and get ready to send someone to do some diving and witness some village trainings in April or so.
Steve

[jhale]

I just looked up the airfare, I might need to sell more frags to make that trip

[Chiefmcfuz]

I know this is a loaded topic but with the collection process the way it is and expanding to PNG for collecting fish, has any part of this project addressed possibly setting up or looked into the possible breeding of fish in captivity and selling those instead of collecting off of the reef? It seems by expanding the collection in the wild, as stated numerous times on many boards and in many periodicals, are getting thin on the reefs. I know I am more likely to purchase captive bred fish than wild caught. I am also more likely to purchase home grown corals as well.

[Deanos]

The list of captive bred fish is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of species commonly available to aquarists. Alot of those species, we can't even tell male from female without an autopsy.

Breeding marine fish

[prattreef]

This is another very interesting topic that again entails complex issues of economics, consumer habits, history and in this case a real deficit in the knowledge of how to actually spawn and rear the vast majority of fish that sustain the industry.

[clarionreef]

has any part of this project addressed possibly setting up or looked into the possible breeding of fish in captivity and selling those instead of collecting off of the reef?
No...because we already know that if ORA cannot do it w/ all the considerable resources they had poured into this....
if Pro Aquatix couldn't do it w/ all the considerable resources they poured into this...
[except for small. fast growing and large egg laying species...a drop in the bucket of reef diversity...] what exactly would we be doing better then they?
It seems by expanding the collection in the wild, as stated numerous times on many boards and in many periodicals, are getting thin on the reefs.

IF collected stupidly, unsustainably...with poison and crowbars....yes!
But you have no idea how wonderful this story turns around when habitat is respected and spared thru proper collecting methodologies.

I know I am more likely to purchase captive bred fish than wild caught.
Only if you buy only some certain clownfishes, some dottybacks, some goby species....and then the list thins out big time.

I am also more likely to purchase home grown corals as well.

Now unlike fishes, coral farming can overprodude on certain groups and cause price declines. Wonderful that it is so easy to do now!

Fragging and planting coral stems out on the reef however, has nothing remotely to do with the breeding and growing out to market size angelfishes, butterflys, anglers, anthias, lions, puffers, triggers and wrasses.

If imagining the utopia of all tank raised fish were possible and true...why waste it on tropical fish breeding? I'd use my imagining gift to secure world peace and feed the hungry first.
I am not trying to be funny here.
The imagining myths have hurt us as they suggested to people that the reefs and the fisherman can all be avoided thru larboratory breakthrus that have so far cost millions and not come to pass!
Sure there is progress. Heck, you can sometimes buy 600 dollar flames if you want to from in Hawaii now.
But the level of progress you "hope for" is far harder to achieve in reality due to serious biological restraints in the laboratory technology of filtering, keeping off disease, feeding and rearing of microscopic larvae that all but the easy species have. [read Deanos link!]
Plus, the tank raised species are the very least of the species in trouble because they are.....the easy species, the fast growing, fast recruiting species! Why do you think they are the ones being bred?

If hollow, token victory takes the place of real achievment and makes people of good intention think "off base" and sidestep the conservation obligation out on the real reefs, then it is not helpful.
Putting fishers out of work diminishes the value of reefs and reef fishes to the them. Then the war on the reefs can really continue.
Only a fraction of villagers get jobs w/ tourism. Did anyone think otherwise?
Only a fraction of villagers will sit down and starve quietly. Did anyone think otherwise?
Most will scrape a reef clean of everything on it if there is no value to it and no reason to moderate, sustain and harvest properly. We bring in this ethic w/ the tropical fish deal and educate and reward people for adhereing to that ethic.
They have no other outside industries that will do this for them as local enterprises encourage a more aggressive fishing attitude.
The sea cuciumber trade has resultied in the diving deaths of hundreds of New Guinea fishers and is another reason the government wants alternatives, alternatives that train people.

You see, from their perspective, this is all about people.
From our Discovery channel, Animal Planet view, its all about coral reefs and precious animals.
Someone has to bridge the gulf between this chasm and unite the interests because ignoring it means you lose it all faster!
Generating and teaching sustainable practices that spare the coral to thousands of fisherfolk working daily save marinelife by amounts you cannot imagine.
Steve

[newfishie]

Steve, I'm in for $20.-. Good luck with the project. The eagerness of the locals is really what is the biggest argument for this project in my mind. Allowing us, the hobbyists, to get involved is great. We, as consumers, after all, are the reason for this trade and are indeed to blame if it is done the wrong way.
2 little questions for you:
- Can you post updates on the project during the 3 year period (maybe pics of how the reef changes; some data relating to number of fish collected etc.)
- How much (in % of global marine fish trade) is being collected by these sustainable netting methods now and do you see a positive trend? (also, how much would this project account for?)

[clarionreef]

Can you post updates on the project during the 3 year period (maybe pics of how the reef changes; some data relating to number of fish collected etc.)
Yes, we'll have reports upon reports because for some thats more important then reality.
More then that however, I want the media and the witnesses this time to see and report for themselves.
Groups reporting on and evaluating their own performance is too much a conflict of interest to mention and yet....is the way it is done!

- How much (in % of global marine fish trade) is being collected by these sustainable netting methods now and do you see a positive trend? (also, how much would this project account for?)
The Philippines and Indonesia [ including the huge cyanide center of Bali ] really run this trade. The huge majority of boxes per week going out to all your favorite whoesalers are from them.
All the other sources are still small when combined together and sprinkeled on top for variety.
Its ironic however that much of the talent in collecting elsewhere is done by net trained Filipinos!
They are welcome abroad and appreciated everywhere except in their own countries.
Since we trained these cyanide fishers into netsman in the 80's and early 90's, the rest of the so called reform groups didn't add any more netsman to the list! Thats because they simply didn't know how to field implement their projects after funding was awarded. Its a scandal but one that everyones just wants to go away.
Despite all the groups that have been granted funds to solve some of this, The Philippines is still not training divers! The grants get used up...and the fishers still don't get converted.
The places doing it right are not even 30% of the grand total I'd bet of all the boxes in from the Pacific every week.
Steve

[newfishie]

thanks Steve, very informative. Again, good luck with your project!

[clarionreef]

Quote: I just looked up the airfare, I might need to sell more frags to make that trip

I just got my ticket and all I can say is don't ever go in JANUARY!
3K ouch!
In March on....its a lot cheaper...by half.
Advanced purchase via Quantas and Air New Zealand have lots of sale fares.
On Air New Zealand, you can have a free stopover at Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, Cook Island s or Tahiti!
I'm stopping by Tonga on the way back in March.
Summertime is probably the best fares of all...and you guys are welcome to come over!
Theres the bungalo on the tropical beach in the heart of the training area for a lot cheaper then if you book thru a travel tour...ie. like 175 a day. You could stay there and be one mile away from one of the primary villages to be trained.
Corals, soft corals, macro stuff, calm water, muck diving and the big reef all close by too!
Google Loloata Island Diving + Papua New Guinea !
Steve