[Josh]

This is a great conversation. I think people are naturally questioning the project but it is nice to see that we can openly discuss it as a group and hopefully give some good feedback to the organizers.

[clarionreef]

"steve u have 12 posts on the board ..."

But,
I don't leave anywhere near Manhattan.... or even New York.
However, I do have 2,800 posts on Reefs.org. Mostly educating on this very same thing for a number of years now. Can I roll some of them over to here?
Like Gresham said....the number of places now you can spend your lunch break looking at or borrowing from your good nite sleep are so many.
I just heard about this place because Joe Russo was the first to offer a chance to raise some netting funds for the training and I thought it would be a great idea to link us up beyond our regular turf...and get the hobby interested in ground level activity.
Its good to hear about other tibes, other places...Manhattan, New Guinea...wherever!
Steve

[ellebelle]

Quote: Originally Posted by MountainReef seems like a big "sell" to me, just for the humane collection of a "pristine" reef...why? ...now i dont want to be hypocritical and say i would not purchase from this region and im sure the effort is honest, but why should i or we donate capital for some1 else to make huge profits in the long run...and if any1 is offended too bad, its a forum to discuss all aspects...you want money, then u have to pony up the answers and they better be good. is there a direct benefit to MR members, not just to give MR a sponsorship? wheels seem to always fall off a bandwagon...

Mike, why does there have to be a particular material gain to Manhattan Reefs specifically? Should this project succeed, the entire fish/aquarium industry will benefit by:
a) having more/rarer fish;
b) having non-cyanide caught fish;
c) having a renewable resource for these fish because the coral that they fish live in won't be destroyed?

Isn't that enough of an incentive to contribute? And please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my impression that MR has not been the only group approached about contributions (but we have been the most generous.)

Additionally, your money also helps to put in place a sustainable industry that will employ people in different villages in PNG, enabling them to make a living. While I know this isn't an incentive for most people, it's at least a nice thing that would make your donation even more worthwhile when coupled with the previous three incentives.

As Steve mentioned, this is a non-profit organization who is trying to set up a system where a pristine reef will not be exploited by those who are looking to make money. Quite honestly, the best conservation work is done by small NGOs with small amounts of money who use the money well and get the job done - and ultimately, I view this project as a community-based conservation effort as it is working to benefit both the people in the communities as well as preserving the reef for all to enjoy. (Its set-up is similar to some of the conservation projects that ultimately protect rainforest hardwoods by strictly regulated selective logging by peoples living in the area.)

Just my $0.02. I am still firmly on the bandwagon - even more so having met with Steve and having seen some of his images and plans for the PNG project.

Looking forward to getting the information on where donations will be collected.

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[Slamajamajama]

lissa who benefits...the village?!? ur naive if u think any1 benefits other than the consumer and mostly the dealer, whomever that may be...
oh and hun, MR dosent do anything unless theres something in it for MR ie; content, sponsership, national recognition etc.

Randy i appreciate u wanting them to be part of MR that u want to coddle them like a newborn but they can obviously speak for themselves and quiet poignantly..all for that "content" pfft..

and steve..u sound desperate, another red flag

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[ellebelle]

Quote: Originally Posted by MountainReef lissa who benefits...the village?!? ur naive if u think any1 benefits other than the consumer and mostly the dealer, whomever that may be... oh and hun, MR dosent do anything unless theres something in it for MR ie; content, sponsership, national recognition etc.

It is in the best interest of MR to support the project because it ultimately benefits you as a consumer. If that's not good enough for you, don't contribute.

I am not an idiot and I don't appreciate being patronized. I have a graduate level degree in a field where I've had to take multiple courses in conservation and ecology. Furthermore, I have traveled in poor areas of third world countries and have first hand experience with the mindsets of people who live near these kind of resources and the corruption in governments. I have seen many conservation efforts of greater magnitude fail spectacularly and degenerate into full-scale environmental exploitation for profit. I am extremely cynical about any project that tries to benefit consumers and the environment and 90% of the time, the environment loses as more and more people are drawn to a potential economic opportunity.

However, I think this one can work because there are experienced people running it, it seems to be well planned, it's small in scale, and they have the cooperation of the government.

If - IF - this project goes through in the way that it was explained to me, there is a potential for everyone to benefit - consumers, exporters, fishermen, and the coral reef.

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[Slamajamajama]

oh brother...

[clarionreef]

"...and steve..u sound desperate, another red flag ..."

To who?
We have an approved budget of 1.3 million to run the project X three years and I just got paid myself for this month. We're doing fine, thank you.
Offering the hobby "buy-in plan" is as much for the hobby to participate as it is for us to save a bit on the budget.
The reform remedies have traditionally not involved hobby groups as they should have.
Of all the errors we are looking to avoid, ignoring the hobbyists is just one of them.
I invite hobbyists inside the tent...for the benefit of the hobby and for it to have a right to have a say so.
Donating to things you believe in however, is not compulsury.
Steve

Manhattan ReefsManhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[Slamajamajama]

then u dont need us, have the mods delete thread and then u can just add your vast knowledge of reefing to this awesome reefing community

[clarionreef]

Fixed on the budget revelation, you missed the rest of the post.

"The reform remedies have traditionally not involved hobby groups as they should have.
Of all the errors we are looking to avoid, ignoring the hobbyists is just one of them.
I invite hobbyists inside the tent...for the benefit of the hobby and for it to have a right to have a say so.
Donating to things you say you believe in however, is not compulsury."
In fact, if you are persuasive and if a group of people agree with you on things, it doesn't have to happen.
Doing nothing seems a pretty safe position...until the hobby becomes still more and more restrictive.
The lack of pro-active agendas that enable a constructive approach to preventing the EVER INCREASING RESTRICTIONS on the trade is not a safe position at all.
The better self defense is no doubt to engage in positive ways and to be part of the solutions and not the problem.
There is no credibility in criticism without better, alternative proposals. My suspicions are born of experience on the real reef and working with real fish collectors.
The better alternative is exactly the point here.

Hesitation and cynicism are useful useful in dealing with phoneys and con artists. The challenge is to develop the discriminating wisdom to tell the difference between fraud and the real thing..
Buying a car, a house, getting married? Oh my gosh...how do we know whats the right choice? No choice?
Afraid of being taken, hoodwinked, bamboozled?
I hear ya....and I'm sorry about who ever burned you before...but it wasn't me.
Steve

[prattreef]

3) What is/will be done to insure that the operation is carried out responsibly into the future.
We will ride herd on them for 3 years straight. We have veto cabability for any totally untrainable knuckleheads who break the coral in collecting.
But seriously. There are few bad students...only bad teachers.
The entire permitting scheme with the government is linked to the training and the passing the training.
Fishes will be linked to catch totals and if the TACS [Total Allowable Catch] is reached, the collection of said fishes are disallowed until the next year.
Surveys and monitoring are a three times a year component to check the impacts...if any on the reefs.
The greatest assurance is an honestly and competently run program...of actual, genuine monitoring and training to prevent the result of incompetent, office based, city based, "theoretical" programs that have predictably failed before.
Although money is always an issue it is not the only issue and not to the obssessive extent that it has been with previous non aquarium groups that have lorded over the industrys response to reform for some 20 years now.
We are mainly fish folks!


For us naive, easily duped, do-gooding coddlers who actually want to know more about the project, can you elaborate on:
1) How and who the surveys and thrice yearly monitorings will take place. What is being checked for? How is it being checked for? etc.

2) How will the business structure be set up so local villages and fishermen do reap the benefits?

3) Why is it so important for hobbyists to be involved from the outset? In what way did leaving hobbyists out of prior reform efforts help doom them to failure? RD