The Italian or the Blue Coral Method
- Thread starter meschaefer
- Start date
okay then you should start with the pappone formula and hold off on trying to go the hgh route. wait for solbbys amino acid recommendations. he's basically circumventing the hgh and giving the coral what it can use right from the start. there are plenty of tanks doing well just feeding the pappone.
seriously i gotta say this. I am sick of people who are looking for the magic bullet. Mine you all these Italian guys also have excellent water parameter and quality. That is why they can supplement their coral's diet.
If you don't know what your doing, then don't do it! You will screw up your tank. Your dosing a very potent protein shake and hoping your corals will uptake this stuff. Please but if you dont understand the science behind it, don't do it!
If you don't know what your doing, then don't do it! You will screw up your tank. Your dosing a very potent protein shake and hoping your corals will uptake this stuff. Please but if you dont understand the science behind it, don't do it!
Dave if you ask me all the "food" in pappone is not what gets the growth.
http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/content/abstract/145/1/140
http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/content/abstract/145/1/140
yeah certain amino acids can be uptaked as a second metabolitic pathway, but if this guy crox has a brown out tank with phosphate what would he be doing? He is just adding crap to kill his tank. I think also LPS like the coral they study has diffrent GI tract compared to SPS. Meanwhile amino acids we dose into our tank is a very small suppliment. Amino acids are building blocks of protein. 1 protein can be made of alot of amino acids. you dont know what they use these amino acids for. i mean the acids might activate the feeding mechanisms but is the ammino acid just acting like a activator like what the article stated.
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- Location
- Howell, NJ
im just listening in on this one.... :biggrin:
Dave, I know what you mean about people looking for an easy way to get their corals to grow. I would not put the blu coral method into the magic bullet category. tank husbandry is still stressed, it's not just a pill or solution that you dose the tank with. I agree with you that people should study and research it well before applying it to their tank.
Rich in that study that you linked (from 1973!) it supported the thinking that certain amino acids stimulate a feeding response in the coral.
6. Since a variety of crustacean zooplankton have been shown to contain comparable concentrations of some of these activators(amino acids), the release of such compounds following puncture of zooplankton by coral nematocysts may elicit the observed capture and ingestion behavior in Montastrea cavernosa.
this sentence to me, is saying the plankton in the water column contains amino acids that the coral react to, and causes them to eat the plankton.
the plankton "tastes" good to the coral. I've not had the chance to study the biology of coral yet, however it makes sense to me that if the coral has evolved to the point that it's able to eat plankton in the wild, it must be doing so for the purpose of gaining energy to grow. I think the blu coral method is seeking to replicate this feeding response found in nature.
Rich in that study that you linked (from 1973!) it supported the thinking that certain amino acids stimulate a feeding response in the coral.
6. Since a variety of crustacean zooplankton have been shown to contain comparable concentrations of some of these activators(amino acids), the release of such compounds following puncture of zooplankton by coral nematocysts may elicit the observed capture and ingestion behavior in Montastrea cavernosa.
this sentence to me, is saying the plankton in the water column contains amino acids that the coral react to, and causes them to eat the plankton.
the plankton "tastes" good to the coral. I've not had the chance to study the biology of coral yet, however it makes sense to me that if the coral has evolved to the point that it's able to eat plankton in the wild, it must be doing so for the purpose of gaining energy to grow. I think the blu coral method is seeking to replicate this feeding response found in nature.
read further down the article it also said this method was tested on cyandria and the menstral filament activator is diffrent then the coral they were tested on. The ammino acid stimulated the tenticals, but they mouth does not open. There is a amino acids for opening the mouth of the coral as well. HgH breaks down into tremendous amount of AA. It's a very complex protein since it's a hormone. Im sure they are just looking for a shotgun affect to open up the coral's feeding sequence.
If you can afford a cycle of HGH, maybe it would be better put towards water quality equipment (skimmers, dosers, reactors, flow, etc.) and better lights. This would be a good long term solution as well. How long does the HGH last before you need more? A guy like crox with PO4 well over .3 would only make his tank worse by adding any supplements.
The problem is, people tend to look past the water quality of these tanks and assume something added to the tank is a "magic pill". If you don't have color and growth, there is a reason for it. No supplement will help. You have to go after your basics. After all, an expert is nothing more than a master of the basics. My tank got better when I attacked the base parameters and stabilized them through consistent dosing, good skimming, automation and water changes.
Me personally, if I were able to afford a cycle of HGH, I sure as hell wouldn't waste it on my tank. I'm doing amino acids very conservatively. The results have been positive, it's not illegal and it's not costing me over $1000.
As Jon said, Shaun is the man with this stuff. Me and Shaun have spoken a bit about this stuff and I do believe I have a grasp, but he really has to dumb down the discussion when he talks to me so I understand it a little. He's got a few threads going in the advanced section which are really good. It's nice having a micro-biologist on the board.
The problem is, people tend to look past the water quality of these tanks and assume something added to the tank is a "magic pill". If you don't have color and growth, there is a reason for it. No supplement will help. You have to go after your basics. After all, an expert is nothing more than a master of the basics. My tank got better when I attacked the base parameters and stabilized them through consistent dosing, good skimming, automation and water changes.
Me personally, if I were able to afford a cycle of HGH, I sure as hell wouldn't waste it on my tank. I'm doing amino acids very conservatively. The results have been positive, it's not illegal and it's not costing me over $1000.
As Jon said, Shaun is the man with this stuff. Me and Shaun have spoken a bit about this stuff and I do believe I have a grasp, but he really has to dumb down the discussion when he talks to me so I understand it a little. He's got a few threads going in the advanced section which are really good. It's nice having a micro-biologist on the board.
- Location
- Ossining, NY
Chris,
If you don't mind, I'd like to agree here - this thread brings the concept of SCIENCE where it needs to be - in the hands of trained experts. Don't read me wrong here - trying is good if guided properly (as you mentioned you sought Solbby's ear) and in reality, keeping to the basics is key to any of these "magic pills"
You can have all the $$$ in the world to obtain HGH, Amino's Vitamin K etc, but if you don't "keep it simple stupid" with stabilizing your basic requirements, no "magic pill" will ever overcome the effects and outcomes presented in your reef from bad basics.
I can see the importance of the research, studies, tryings etc, but unless under the guise of an expert scientist, the outcome is likely not to be good. The ones to benefit from all this is propagation companies that can afford to maintain large stable systems and enhance the growth of their corals to get them to market faster and with a healthier developed strain.
FWIW, you know how many mutant sheep were slaughtered before we successfully cloned ONE!!!!!!! and those were trained scientists.
Leave the firefighting to fireman and the science to scientists.
JMO.
House
Yes, Jim, one thing I definitely should have stressed is I spoke to Dave and Shaun in great detail before I tried this. Both of them have degrees in the sciences while I barely made it through HS. Shaun is also a practicing, professional microbiologist. When I do things to my tank, I'd like to be able to have an ability to discuss what's working, why and what may not. Not being at that level, I looked for the advice and opinions of those who are.
Even after discussions, I'm doing less than half the dosage Shaun is using. This topic is very interesting to me since I've long felt nutrition was a key to success and growth with SPS. The problem is, feeding corals is just like feeding fish. If you do to much or don't have aggressive nutrient removal, your water quality will suffer.
I'm really hoping we can keep this discussion rolling. I'd like to see if anyone is using variations of the 2, or any other feeding regiment.
Even after discussions, I'm doing less than half the dosage Shaun is using. This topic is very interesting to me since I've long felt nutrition was a key to success and growth with SPS. The problem is, feeding corals is just like feeding fish. If you do to much or don't have aggressive nutrient removal, your water quality will suffer.
I'm really hoping we can keep this discussion rolling. I'd like to see if anyone is using variations of the 2, or any other feeding regiment.
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All right, I started this thread over a week ago, and its starting to build some steam.
I agree that the basics are what is most important. I havn't tried this method yet, and don't know that I wil. I have some other variables to get under control first (Po4). And I have alot of room for improvment by just focusing on the basics. I am getting there.
I also agree that we need expert advice on this issue, and one my main reasons for starting the thread was to get Solbby's ear. When he didn't chime in, I pm'd him directly and he told me that he has seen success, but is waiting to collect all his data before speaking publicly about it. I respect that.
For those of you that are dosing Amino Acids, what Amino's are you dosing and what response have you seen?
I agree that the basics are what is most important. I havn't tried this method yet, and don't know that I wil. I have some other variables to get under control first (Po4). And I have alot of room for improvment by just focusing on the basics. I am getting there.
I also agree that we need expert advice on this issue, and one my main reasons for starting the thread was to get Solbby's ear. When he didn't chime in, I pm'd him directly and he told me that he has seen success, but is waiting to collect all his data before speaking publicly about it. I respect that.
For those of you that are dosing Amino Acids, what Amino's are you dosing and what response have you seen?
I agree!! Guys can we keep this thread going in the manner Chris and Matt have suggested. This method and information can be so valuable to us. we all want our tanks to be the best they can. I'm sure everyone who is on this thread understands their is no "magic pill" to a great tank. It takes hard work and dedication to nuture, grow, and develop the amazing tanks that are shown in the Italian thread. I'd love to see some of our local reefers displaying tanks that looks similar or better some day :usa1:
Lets :help:eachother to achieve that goal
So far with the exception of a very very few people on this board most had better polish their skills and husbandry on their tanks and learn how to properly care for their corals. Im not just talking letting it grow. A monkey could do that. But actually provide an environment where the inhabitants can thrive. Get to the basics. you cant build a computer if you don't even know how to use a calculator. Its that simple.
As for the other dudes that actually know what they are talking about and know what they are doing..... keep it coming cause its an interesting read
As for the other dudes that actually know what they are talking about and know what they are doing..... keep it coming cause its an interesting read
Are you now???:Up_to_som
As much as I hate to say it, I agree with Herman on this. I'm very reluctant to post certain things because when some see it, rather than ask about my system and why it works, they just go get the product, and when their tank turns green, I become the a-hole.(<<< no sarcastic remarks needed. I'm aware)Are you now???
I'm really going to stress water quality and the fact that at this point for most members, they would be spending their money better on water quality rather than anything else.
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You can see in the last pic, I have stuff growing out of the water.
I keep my alk, ca and mg on the higher end. 11.2 dKh, 470 and 1400. I've been feeding Phol's Coral Vitalizer, DT Oyster Eggs, and dosing Zeo Amino Acids. All of which are dosed below the recommended amount. I dose less than half the recommended amount of AA. I still use Randy 2 part on a doser adding 300 ml per day. I have 240 gallons total water volume. I change 80 gallons of water per month and I use a beckett skimmer.
I keep my alk, ca and mg on the higher end. 11.2 dKh, 470 and 1400. I've been feeding Phol's Coral Vitalizer, DT Oyster Eggs, and dosing Zeo Amino Acids. All of which are dosed below the recommended amount. I dose less than half the recommended amount of AA. I still use Randy 2 part on a doser adding 300 ml per day. I have 240 gallons total water volume. I change 80 gallons of water per month and I use a beckett skimmer.
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