The Italian or the Blue Coral Method
- Thread starter meschaefer
- Start date
- Location
- Montclair, NJ
Beautiful Chris. I have to stop by one day and learn your methods. I am a little bit away from even understanding the basics though so I hope the book club will help me there.
Thanks guys. Keep in mind that I have fragged my tank 5 times between the end of december and today. Also, some rearranging has been done, so you can lose track of 1 coral and see another in it's place. My camera sucks for this and I always forget the distance I was from my tank, so my pics show some discrepancies between each shot. My pics show no color. Someone said "white balance", but I don't know what that means and I don't know how to fix that on my camera. I sure as hell am not going through an instruction manual thicker than the old and new testaments combined to find it.
As far as the higher range numbers in alk/ca and mg along with feeding and AA, I kind of see myself as a cross between the 2 methods. But my husbandry practices would also be a cross between BB and DSB, even though I have a DSB.
As far as the higher range numbers in alk/ca and mg along with feeding and AA, I kind of see myself as a cross between the 2 methods. But my husbandry practices would also be a cross between BB and DSB, even though I have a DSB.
Matt, it's hard to say. My tank was a wreck before I was dosing. It wasn't the dosing that fixed it. Like I said before, I went after the basics.
I had issues with PO4, NO3, low alk and high ca. I fixed the problems that I was having. After I got stabilized, I was dosing the recommended dosage of AA, but I also switched 2 part formulas. So now, I was getting better color and growth with better water quality, but I was having a really bad issue with green algae on my front glass. I didn't get it. I thought it was the Randy 2 Part, but it was actually Mshur who told me I was dosing too much AA.
I had issues with PO4, NO3, low alk and high ca. I fixed the problems that I was having. After I got stabilized, I was dosing the recommended dosage of AA, but I also switched 2 part formulas. So now, I was getting better color and growth with better water quality, but I was having a really bad issue with green algae on my front glass. I didn't get it. I thought it was the Randy 2 Part, but it was actually Mshur who told me I was dosing too much AA.
In the research that I have done the possibility of algae outbreaks seems to be a big concern when dosing amino acids. It seems to be a fine line between just the right amount and too much. This is one of the concerns that Solbby mentioned to me when I approached him for information, and one of the reasons that he wants to get a better handle on dosing before he spreads his knowledge.
No doubt Matt. I feel the same way. That's why I say I'm very conservative with it now.
I want everyone to please keep in mind that over all, I really know **** about nothing here and I dare not speak for Shaun. Anything that I am saying did not come from his mouth. He is in a whole different league. I think when Shaun gets back and he feels he is ready, he will be able to really get into the AA while I'm just going to sit here and stress to death that water quality is the overall key.
As an example, yesterday, I ran into someone who had purchased some LS from me. I asked how it was all doing and he said "not well". When I ran into him, he was purchasing more LS, not anything for his water quality. This is a member who I happen to really like. I can't tell you how much this drives me f-ing crazy.
Overall, there is a habit here in the hobby for people to rush into live stock and replacing what is lost. I too am guilty of this. Spend your money on quality equipment. Worry about the rest when you have good water quality. You'll save a ton of money in the long run.
I want everyone to please keep in mind that over all, I really know **** about nothing here and I dare not speak for Shaun. Anything that I am saying did not come from his mouth. He is in a whole different league. I think when Shaun gets back and he feels he is ready, he will be able to really get into the AA while I'm just going to sit here and stress to death that water quality is the overall key.
As an example, yesterday, I ran into someone who had purchased some LS from me. I asked how it was all doing and he said "not well". When I ran into him, he was purchasing more LS, not anything for his water quality. This is a member who I happen to really like. I can't tell you how much this drives me f-ing crazy.
Overall, there is a habit here in the hobby for people to rush into live stock and replacing what is lost. I too am guilty of this. Spend your money on quality equipment. Worry about the rest when you have good water quality. You'll save a ton of money in the long run.
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Hi from Argentina! I?m on vacation in south america and would have chimed in on this thread early but computers and time to discuss reefs are hard to find here.
So, it is true that I have been experimenting with my tank dosing both glycerol and L-aspartic acid for the past 2 months. The reason for both are based on scientific literature describing SPS coral nutritional needs. When we talk about SPS growth all I see described by most hobbists is the need for Ca and carbonate for growth and how important it is to maintain the "correct" levels for calcification.
But what is rarely discussed and often glossed over is the tissue component of SPS and the needs required to maintain and multiply it. When I say "tissue" it is the outside skin of the coral and the polyps/guts, zoox also. All this biological material is made up of various proteins and requires amino acids as the starting material to make these proteins. So where do these starting material come from? Well the literature tells us that most amino acids are created via photosynthesis (for the biologist minded, light --> sugar --> krebs cycle --> amino acids). However, just like us there are essential amino acids (only obtained via food intake) and non-essential ones (created via metabolism). For an SPS almost all the amino acids are made via photosynthesis and metabolic pathways, however, a few (especially one) are not able to be created via light. The amino acid L-aspartic acid is one example and ironcially it is the most abundant amino acid found in the SPS tissue. Without it SPS would not grow regardless of Ca and carbonate levels. When a corals feeds it is attempting to acquire the essential amino acids, especially L-aspartic acid. By dosing it directly to the water I am providing the missing component for the full nutritional reqiurement of the animal. I am also skipping all the extra, mostly unnessesary biological material that everybody else adds when they feed an aquarium, i.e. preventing the breakdown of food leading to high waste/nutrients/nitrate/phosphate.
So does my SPS like my experiment? Most certainly YES. My color and growth are the best that it has ever been. Is my phosphate level low? YES, Chris measured it and it is minimal. I feed my tank twice a week now, just to keep my fish happy.
So how much do I dose and what do I use - I will tell when I get back from Argentina, but if you are going to follow in my footsteps you need to understand the biology.
So, it is true that I have been experimenting with my tank dosing both glycerol and L-aspartic acid for the past 2 months. The reason for both are based on scientific literature describing SPS coral nutritional needs. When we talk about SPS growth all I see described by most hobbists is the need for Ca and carbonate for growth and how important it is to maintain the "correct" levels for calcification.
But what is rarely discussed and often glossed over is the tissue component of SPS and the needs required to maintain and multiply it. When I say "tissue" it is the outside skin of the coral and the polyps/guts, zoox also. All this biological material is made up of various proteins and requires amino acids as the starting material to make these proteins. So where do these starting material come from? Well the literature tells us that most amino acids are created via photosynthesis (for the biologist minded, light --> sugar --> krebs cycle --> amino acids). However, just like us there are essential amino acids (only obtained via food intake) and non-essential ones (created via metabolism). For an SPS almost all the amino acids are made via photosynthesis and metabolic pathways, however, a few (especially one) are not able to be created via light. The amino acid L-aspartic acid is one example and ironcially it is the most abundant amino acid found in the SPS tissue. Without it SPS would not grow regardless of Ca and carbonate levels. When a corals feeds it is attempting to acquire the essential amino acids, especially L-aspartic acid. By dosing it directly to the water I am providing the missing component for the full nutritional reqiurement of the animal. I am also skipping all the extra, mostly unnessesary biological material that everybody else adds when they feed an aquarium, i.e. preventing the breakdown of food leading to high waste/nutrients/nitrate/phosphate.
So does my SPS like my experiment? Most certainly YES. My color and growth are the best that it has ever been. Is my phosphate level low? YES, Chris measured it and it is minimal. I feed my tank twice a week now, just to keep my fish happy.
So how much do I dose and what do I use - I will tell when I get back from Argentina, but if you are going to follow in my footsteps you need to understand the biology.
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One of the downsides to adding L-aspartic acid that I have observed is that I have to clean my glass much more often initially. This was due to the huge increase in single cell algae and bacterial growth.
In the past, once every two weeks was about the time that looking into my tank became slightly difficult due to a green film of algae present. However, after beginning dosing L-aspartic acid I had to clean the glass almost every day, definately every two days. So what is going on? Well by adding L-aspartic acid, I provided fuel not only for corals but also allowed bacteria and algae to use elements in the tank that normally would not be utilized so readily to create sugars (using L-aspartic acid) and therefore grow. So any phosphate and/or nitrate would be taken advantage of in a much more efficient way, which was observed by the algae on the glass.
To counteract this mechanism since I didn't want to clean my glass every day, I had to increase the amount of phosban I was using by adding an additional reaction chamber, i.e. removing inorganic phosphate. This also is where the glycerol comes in. The glycerol acts like vodka, but much better and more pure as a carbon source. Glycerol would be utilized by anaerobic bacteria (as a carbon source) since it would penetrate to the anoxic (low oxygen) regions of the tank and stimulate their growth/activity, and hence make them catalyze nitrate to NO2 gas conversion.
A question I can't answer (nobody can,
):
Is the addition of L-aspartic acid directly taken up and utilized by SPS corals (and others) to be incorporated directly into their tissue?
or
Does the L-aspartic acid stimulate all the single cell algae and bacteria such that more food is present for SPS to consume and they are getting their L-aspartic acid this way?
In the past, once every two weeks was about the time that looking into my tank became slightly difficult due to a green film of algae present. However, after beginning dosing L-aspartic acid I had to clean the glass almost every day, definately every two days. So what is going on? Well by adding L-aspartic acid, I provided fuel not only for corals but also allowed bacteria and algae to use elements in the tank that normally would not be utilized so readily to create sugars (using L-aspartic acid) and therefore grow. So any phosphate and/or nitrate would be taken advantage of in a much more efficient way, which was observed by the algae on the glass.
To counteract this mechanism since I didn't want to clean my glass every day, I had to increase the amount of phosban I was using by adding an additional reaction chamber, i.e. removing inorganic phosphate. This also is where the glycerol comes in. The glycerol acts like vodka, but much better and more pure as a carbon source. Glycerol would be utilized by anaerobic bacteria (as a carbon source) since it would penetrate to the anoxic (low oxygen) regions of the tank and stimulate their growth/activity, and hence make them catalyze nitrate to NO2 gas conversion.
A question I can't answer (nobody can,
):Is the addition of L-aspartic acid directly taken up and utilized by SPS corals (and others) to be incorporated directly into their tissue?
or
Does the L-aspartic acid stimulate all the single cell algae and bacteria such that more food is present for SPS to consume and they are getting their L-aspartic acid this way?
One of the downsides to adding L-aspartic acid that I have observed is that I have to clean my glass much more often initially. This was due to the huge increase in single cell algae and bacterial growth.
In the past, once every two weeks was about the time that looking into my tank became slightly difficult due to a green film of algae present. However, after beginning dosing L-aspartic acid I had to clean the glass almost every day, definately every two days. So what is going on? Well by adding L-aspartic acid, I provided fuel not only for corals but also allowed bacteria and algae to use elements in the tank that normally would not be utilized so readily to create sugars (using L-aspartic acid) and therefore grow. So any phosphate and/or nitrate would be taken advantage of in a much more efficient way, which was observed by the algae on the glass.
To counteract this mechanism since I didn't want to clean my glass every day, I had to increase the amount of phosban I was using by adding an additional reaction chamber, i.e. removing inorganic phosphate. This also is where the glycerol comes in. The glycerol acts like vodka, but much better and more pure as a carbon source. Glycerol would be utilized by anaerobic bacteria (as a carbon source) since it would penetrate to the anoxic (low oxygen) regions of the tank and stimulate their growth/activity, and hence make them catalyze nitrate to NO2 gas conversion.
A question I can't answer (nobody can,
Is the addition of L-aspartic acid directly taken up and utilized by SPS corals (and others) to be incorporated directly into their tissue?
or
Does the L-aspartic acid stimulate all the single cell algae and bacteria such that more food is present for SPS to consume and they are getting their L-aspartic acid this way?
You mention that the L-aspartic acid allowed phosphates/nitrate to be used in a more efficient way by providing a carbon source. Is the lack of a carbon source the limiting factor in the production of alage and bacteria?
Wouldn't the increase in alage and bacteria, and the corresponding uptake of phosphate and nitrates make them more susceptiable to being removed via skimming, alleviating the need for the use of more GFO. Obvioulsy not, as you did require more GFO.
What where your phophate levels before you started dosing? after?
I am ignorant of the chemical make up of the L-apartic acid, does it contain phosphate/nitrate or the necessary componets to produce these substances when it breaks down? I assume it does break down, as it is adding a carbon source.. am I wrong?
Jeeze... thanks Matt and Shaun, I actually though I had a grasp. Leave science to scientists, right?
Anyway, my doses have been very conservative. Algae on my glass has not been an issue for me. I'm also still skimming black sludge. I skim as dry as I can.
I also can't say anything for my growth and color. There is a range of things being done, any one or combination of what I do could be the case for my results. Either way, seems I'm getting the same results, but spending much less. I haven't made my final decision if I will stick with it or not. I want to give more time.
Anyway, my doses have been very conservative. Algae on my glass has not been an issue for me. I'm also still skimming black sludge. I skim as dry as I can.
I also can't say anything for my growth and color. There is a range of things being done, any one or combination of what I do could be the case for my results. Either way, seems I'm getting the same results, but spending much less. I haven't made my final decision if I will stick with it or not. I want to give more time.
shaun, you may be interested in a product I just tried, ultra life.
it's like a floculent that binds to PO4 and allows it to be skimmed out.
I've only used it once so I can't say how well it works.
see the thread here, http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/advanced-reefs/23428-fauna-marin-ultra-life.html
it's like a floculent that binds to PO4 and allows it to be skimmed out.
I've only used it once so I can't say how well it works.
see the thread here, http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/advanced-reefs/23428-fauna-marin-ultra-life.html
i think you gotten the idea wrong. L aspartic acid is a nitrogen source aka amino acids. They form protein structures tho they can be oxidize and formed into sugar. L-aspartic is dosed to form coral tissue, and not to be used as a alternative carbon source.
what shaun is using as a carbon source is glycerol and not the L aspartic acid. It's a more pure stored form then the average bleached sucrose. A carbon source allows more bacteria to grow. Therefore you can have more nitrification.
I hope you guys dont kill your tanks from ODing on L-aspartic acid thinking it's a carbon source.
OK, but I am still not sure why he would need to increase use of GFO no matter where the carbon source was coming from.
Is carbon the limiting factor, with excess phosphate that now needs to be removed, where before it was benign. Or is the use of the L-aspartic acid and the glycerol somehow adding phophate to the system, either directly or as it breaks down.
even if bacteria can eliminate phosphate and nitrate it doesnt mean don't prevent the formation of phosphate and nitrate. carbon is a food think of it like that. The more food the higher amount of population forms. Think of it this way mcdonals is giving you twice the amount of food as usual, then you got twice the amount of fat people being formed. That's what the carbon source does. it's a food source where the bacteria can easily utilize, so it replicates faster.
GFO is good cause it prevents having phosphate in the water. why would you want bacteria to be the only phosphate removal unit. You need multiple to keep your water clean.
What I am getting at is why the need for more GFO then he was using before, it the amount of phosphates if teh L-aspartic acid didn't add any?
Dave is correct, L-aspartic acid isn't just a carbon source. But he is incorrect in that it is just an N-source also. It is both.
It would tap into the Krebs Cycle or gluconeogenesis via a transaminase reaction converting it to oxaloacetate.
Read this to understand metabolism and catabolism of L-aspartic acid (Asparagine).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asparagine
http://www.sbuniv.edu/~ggray/CHE3364/b1c28out.html
This is unproven and pure myth at this point! I hope to find the real truth through my bacterial study.
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