Slow Continuous Coral Death
- Thread starter Wes
- Start date
- Location
- Upper East Side
My guess is high TOC.
interceptor treatment didnt seem to help.
I sent off a sample to aquariumwatertesting.com to see if they pick up anything. Did another huge water change today.
I don't see how it could be high TOC. I have been doing massive water changes like crazy. Have a deltec skimmer rated double my tank size. Have always kept nitrates and phosphates low. I have always had very low nutrient levels and done weekly water changes, etc.
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- Location
- Upper East Side
Ken Feldman's talk was very illuminating on this point. TOC is not the same as phosphate or nitrate. In controlled experiments, it killed corals at significantly higher rates than phosphates, nitrates and even ammonia. It isn't phosphate or nitrate, so your test kits wouldn't measure it. Your skimmer will only remove, at best, approximately 20-30% of your TOC and it will peak everytime you feed and about four hours after the lights come on.
Maybe the corals are producing it faster than you can change the water? Or maybe it has built up very very slowly and it only reaching levels that are detrimental to your corals?
How much carbon are you running on your system and how often do you change it?
Maybe the corals are producing it faster than you can change the water? Or maybe it has built up very very slowly and it only reaching levels that are detrimental to your corals?
How much carbon are you running on your system and how often do you change it?
- Location
- Upper East Side
Try doing your water changes right after you feed. That is when TOC is at its highest.
Also - are you running GAC? I read through the thread but I didn't see it anywhere.
Also - are you running GAC? I read through the thread but I didn't see it anywhere.
Lissa I do use GAC.
i just read Ken's article. At this point it looks like Ken's theory is just a theory at this point with a bit of anecdotal evidence. I will definitely look forward to reading his future findings.
The inexplicable mass mortality of corals in seemingly healthy reef aquaria remains one of the most perplexing and frustrating events in the hobby. Reef bulletin boards all too frequently contain threads that begin "Help! My tank is crashing; my corals are dying, but all of my measurable water parameters are within expected ranges. What's wrong?" Could it be possible that elevated levels of DOC, for whatever the reason, are contributing to, or even causing, the coral loss? Might increases in DOC lead to runaway growth of the corals' bacterial symbiont population that in turn might precipitate a critical imbalance in (some of) the bacterial components of the coral holobiont? These questions are not answerable at present, since there is a complete lack of data on DOC (or TOC) levels in marine aquariums. Thus, basic data like basal TOC levels in successful aquariums, and how those levels might change in response to various stimuli (i.e., tank inhabitants, feeding, different husbandry techniques, ? skimming, ? GAC, ? ozone, etc) have yet to be recorded. Only after a broad and comprehensive database of marine aquarium DOC (TOC) levels has been compiled can some judgments about the significance of DOC levels on coral (and overall livestock) health be offered.
i just read Ken's article. At this point it looks like Ken's theory is just a theory at this point with a bit of anecdotal evidence. I will definitely look forward to reading his future findings.
The inexplicable mass mortality of corals in seemingly healthy reef aquaria remains one of the most perplexing and frustrating events in the hobby. Reef bulletin boards all too frequently contain threads that begin "Help! My tank is crashing; my corals are dying, but all of my measurable water parameters are within expected ranges. What's wrong?" Could it be possible that elevated levels of DOC, for whatever the reason, are contributing to, or even causing, the coral loss? Might increases in DOC lead to runaway growth of the corals' bacterial symbiont population that in turn might precipitate a critical imbalance in (some of) the bacterial components of the coral holobiont? These questions are not answerable at present, since there is a complete lack of data on DOC (or TOC) levels in marine aquariums. Thus, basic data like basal TOC levels in successful aquariums, and how those levels might change in response to various stimuli (i.e., tank inhabitants, feeding, different husbandry techniques, ? skimming, ? GAC, ? ozone, etc) have yet to be recorded. Only after a broad and comprehensive database of marine aquarium DOC (TOC) levels has been compiled can some judgments about the significance of DOC levels on coral (and overall livestock) health be offered.
I do have emeralds in my tank. Unfortunately i don't think i will be able to convince the wife of a QT tank right now. We have realtors showing our condo right now and we have to keep the place free from clutter.
- Location
- Upper East Side
Ooh, ALSO in Ken's experiment charting the fluctuations in TOC over the course of a weeklong period, his largest jump in TOC was directly after he did a water change. TOC jumped after each feeding (he feeds 3x weekly) but the biggest leap was right after the water change. We speculated a little bit about this during the Q&A section about whether or not this might have to do with removing the good stuff that helps to process the TOC (bacteria etc.) when we do water changes. Unfortunately, he didn't have a chance to repeat the experiement to see if that was an idiosyncratic week or not.
But, let's say it ISN'T - if you got a bigger peak in TOC after every water change and your TOC is peaking at fatal levels for corals, then water changes could actually be more detrimental.
When I was having this problem, I got rid of it by switching to a larger tank. While that means I did a 100% water change (I kept maybe 15g of my previous water), it means that there was a greater water volume for my TOC to be diluted and I lost a bunch of corals so there were fewer putting out TOCs.
Just some thoughts.
But, let's say it ISN'T - if you got a bigger peak in TOC after every water change and your TOC is peaking at fatal levels for corals, then water changes could actually be more detrimental.
When I was having this problem, I got rid of it by switching to a larger tank. While that means I did a 100% water change (I kept maybe 15g of my previous water), it means that there was a greater water volume for my TOC to be diluted and I lost a bunch of corals so there were fewer putting out TOCs.
Just some thoughts.
- Location
- Upper East Side
Wes, he's got a new article coming on in Advanced Aquarist in January. He gave quite a bit of experimental evidence during his talk at the swap.
My results came back from aquariumwatertesting.com. Everything looks good except for low IODINE. Does anyone think low iodine could be my problem? I am going to pick up some iodine on the way home. Hope it helps...
Ammonia (NH3-4) ........................Good ........................................ 0.004
Nitrite (NO2)................................Good ........................................ 0.017
Nitrate (NO3)...............................Good ............................................2.8
Phosphate (PO4) ..........................Good ......................................... 0.06
Silica (SiO2-3) .............................Good ...........................................0.4
Potassium (K) ..............................Good .......................................... 421
Calcium (Ca)................................Good .......................................... 444
Boron (B) ....................................Good ...........................................3.0
Molybdenum (Mo).........................Good ............................................0.1
Strontium (Sr) .............................Good ............................................8.8
Magnesium (Mg) ..........................Good ......................................... 1248
Iodine (I?)....................................Low.......................................... 0.01
Copper (Cu++) ............................Good ......................................... 0.01
Alkalinity (meq/L).........................Good .......................................... 3.74
i'll pick up some iodine tonight. if anyone has any experiences with low iodine please chime in.
Ammonia (NH3-4) ........................Good ........................................ 0.004
Nitrite (NO2)................................Good ........................................ 0.017
Nitrate (NO3)...............................Good ............................................2.8
Phosphate (PO4) ..........................Good ......................................... 0.06
Silica (SiO2-3) .............................Good ...........................................0.4
Potassium (K) ..............................Good .......................................... 421
Calcium (Ca)................................Good .......................................... 444
Boron (B) ....................................Good ...........................................3.0
Molybdenum (Mo).........................Good ............................................0.1
Strontium (Sr) .............................Good ............................................8.8
Magnesium (Mg) ..........................Good ......................................... 1248
Iodine (I?)....................................Low.......................................... 0.01
Copper (Cu++) ............................Good ......................................... 0.01
Alkalinity (meq/L).........................Good .......................................... 3.74
i'll pick up some iodine tonight. if anyone has any experiences with low iodine please chime in.
- Location
- Montclair, NJ
From what I understand about iodine (I have horn sharks which need consistent levels so I have done a lot of research on it) is that many marine inverts including corals rely on iodine as an essential element. So I would think this could be a problem although I do not have direct experience with low levels and corals to say for sure. Low levels of iodine will cause eye infections in horn sharks and death for many shrimp. Do you have shrimp or clams? If so, notice any problems with them?
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- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
It doesn't seem directly related to your Acro issue, but I have a large red lobo that has been in my care for over a decade that one day a few months ago started to pale and lose heads for no apparent reason. The normal parameters seemed fine as did the other tank inhabitants. On a lark, kind of on instinct I added some ESV potassium iodide for about 3 days ina row and the colony showed almost immediate improvement--- the color began to return and the tissue recession stopped cold. The coral has been fine ever since and I rather imprecisely add the iodide a few times a week. You certainly won't harm anything by trying. Good luck.
QUESTIONMARC
www.Questionmarc.com
- Location
- Bronx, New York 10465
do you run phosban? did this start after a phosban change?
even more importantly do you run ferric oxide???
even more importantly do you run ferric oxide???
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