Hard to Keep License

[Len]

Voluntarily certification will not work, no matter where we impose it in the chain of custody. Those willing to subscribe are already responsible. We'd be basically teaching Spanish to a bunch of Spainards.

And even responsible, educated reefkeepers kill, directly and indirectly. It's undeniable. For every one specimen that lives, at least 2 have died. We may think we're masters of the universe. We may shrug off death as a learning experience or public awareness. We may think we're resonsible enough to police ourselves. But history says we clearly aren't.

What we need is something mandatory - something that completely sweeps the board.

Seeing that we agree that we can't please all parties, how about we ban the import of all wild-caught cnidarians, period? The United States is the biggest consumer of marine ornamental organisms. Even if we don't have direct authority to control international collectors, we'd make a HUGE impact on the global community if we voluntarily imposed a mandatory, well-versed, federal legislation outlining the outright ban of all wild-caught cnidarians by the year 20XX. This will force everyone involved in the hobby to revisit the issue of conservation, propagation, and responsibility. Because the only real way to stop raping our reefs is to stop taking from it to fulfill our selfish desires. I've had my fair share of contribution to the problem, but slowly, as I peruse my principles and see all the corals/fishes come through LA (and I know 90% of them will die prematurely), I can't help but think that we're slowly killing what we love.

I would think that at this point in our hobby, we have enough broodstock, understanding, and capability to develop a workable captive breeding program in the next 10 years.

Reefs.org memebers seem to take more responsible positions on this subject then another unnamed board.

 

[SPC]

Well, to me this thread has shown exactly what I thought, a few conservationist, a few my rights are all that matter, and the VAST majority not even posting. Its the same old story, the human species will only change if forced to change, and so it goes.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Whether it is a licence or prohibition on sale of certain species, something has to be done.
Otherwise, the government will do it for us.
If we snooze we lose.

 

[jmeader]

Judging by government's past performances on all of the programs they've undertaken, the next to last death knell for the reefs is government deciding to protect them. The final death knell will be when they decide to fix or improve them.

 

[GavAn]

I also have enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion and being exposed to some points of view that I am not usually exposed to.

At the end of the day, IMO these sort of things will have to be mandatory. In a perfect world they wouldn't, but in our world, I think that they will. Who now would begrudge mandatory seatbelt rules for example? I agree that there would be many hurdles in terms of who and how to implement such a thing. However I don't subscribe to the idea that this is in any way elitism. My definition of an expert is somebody who has studied, practiced and devoted considerable time to a specific area and I think that, for example, many people on this board would qualify in that department as would many people in public aquariums etc. While they would not always agree on everything (which group of "experts" would?), one uniting factor is that on many of the important points they would agree - Goniopora is not easy to keep, in general most SPS does better under intense lighting etc... I guarantee that a group of newbies would not agree on these types of things. People need qualifications to put principle into practice in other areas why not this one? I don't believe that this should apply to everything, just the difficult to keep stuff. One thing that I do know is that when I look back on when I was a newbie, I made a lot of what now seem to be needless mistakes. If there had been something to stop me from making some of those mistakes I would now be apprecative. One thing about having to get a drivers license is that it makes you take things slowly, you learn the road rules first and then, in stages, how to drive. I think that if you asked everyone you know if they are a responsible driver they would say yes but if that system was not in place how well would the roads work? I would argue that sometimes such measures enhance the scope of personal freedom. In this case it might just enhance the personal freedom of future generations who would be free to keep wild marine creatures that still existed and were not under the shadow of draconian goverenment restrictions that were forced upon us by hobbyists not taking the initative and driving the agenda towards a sensible and appropriate set of guidelines. In a perfect world perhaps.

Gavan

 

[Kalkbreath]

Well,Lets get real.. What exactly would you say would be an acceptable survival rate on animals not included in the license only group? What percent of yellow Tangs should survive one year on average is hobbyists tanks in order for yellow Tangs not to be included in the "you need a License list "...

 

[Anonymous]

I do not think it would be bad to have corals rated by difficulty and make it mandatory to show such a rating.

The problem is....who sets the standard?

Dan

 

[GavAn]

KB,

Let's see, how about >5% survival, the same value that statisticians usually use to refute that a hypothesis is credible. That would be a good start! When we are talking about survival in the hands of newbies I have no doubt that Goniopora would fail the acid test. Mandarins may, Tubastrea I would think would fail, anemones other than E. quadricolour might come close. A better value for "unacceptable risk in the hands of novices" might be anything with a survival rate in 1 year of less than 10%. How does that grab ya?

Gavan

[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: GavAn ]

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think Any Government study showing that at best any animal even Damsels have only a ten percent chance of surviving a year... will mean Outrage and the end of this hobby. We need to either aknowledge that this hobby is a vast killing field and stop placing importance on one animal Which has only a one percent chance of surviving and acting as if the fact that every other animal at best only has a five to ten percent chance is somehow alright...Much like an arguement on whos poop smells less? Its all poop?Who cares which smells worse? Both 1% and 5% are very poor and to some Goverment implementor of your little License idea, this hobby will look very much like what it is........

 

[JennM]

First of all, YOU GO MINH! (

)

SteveNichols, YES I am opposed to participating and here is why...I've been in the hobby for 15 years. I've not kept a wide assortment of species, because geez, they seemed to live a long time, so I didn't replace them that often. I work for a decent LFS, and I consider myself to be reasonably knowledgable, perhaps more knowledgable than average, just by virtue of the fact that I am exposed to MANY specimens and species. Am *I* an expert? NO WAY. Are you? Is anybody? There are many so-called, and in some cases, self-proclaimed experts and gurus out there, and I personally have found things I disagreed with with every single one that I've read. Does that make them wrong and me right...no not necessarily. There are some very knowledgable people out there sharing a great resource with others, but I really don't like the word expert. One can also be "textbook smart" but real-life.....well let's just say that common sense took a back seat.

When I said we would probably not all agree on the criteria, I meant it. I also acknowledge that there are many ways to do many things in a reef tank, and I disagree with a lot of stuff I read here, but I don't go looking for an argument. You do what works for you, I do what works for me...if all the animals are healthy and thriving, it is right.

I think it IS elitist and even a little foolish to think that "we" as a group should elevate ourselves to the point where we should decide who keeps what.

In another thread, a poster was showing their new seahorse tank, and several others suggested that seahorses are too difficult/challenging and shouldn't be attempted. As I type this, I am peering into my nursery tank and looking at my baby H. reidi born on Tuesday

Do YOU think I'm not qualified to attempt to rear some young? OR should that decision remain with me, the hobbyist, who researched the animal and its needs BEFORE buying them, before allowing them to mate and before the babies were born?

We are our own "police force". Each individual SHOULD educate themself before making an aquisition. There is a "bandwagon mentality" here sometimes that can work for AND AGAINST hobbyists. I see party line and opinion expressed over and over, but how many people actually have the EXPERIENCE themselves, or do they just read it and repeat it? I'm not suggesting that everybody should make the same mistake over and over, and yes there are some "universal truths" that should be repeated....but using the seahorse example....if one person says it because they had a negative experience, or did not do their homework first, and everybody believed they are impossible and never felt competant or capable, how would captive propagation ever come to pass? FYI there are lots of hobbyists having good success with this Genus, despite the fact that they ARE a challenge. Your proposed criteria might prevent one more hobbyist from being successful.

In my opinion the real problem does not lie with hobbyists that frequent this and other educational websites, it is with those who just want to look at the fishies and not do any homework as to what each individual specimen needs. Often it's people who have more money than brains (but not always) or people with the attitude that these animals are "disposable" and provided for our use and abuse without any regard for them whatsoever.

As for statistics...my employer, stated in a talk recently, that a staggering 40 % of corals and 60 % of fish specimens overall, DIE before they ever reach the end user, the hobbyist. Couple that with mortality rates AFTER they reach the end-user, IMO you would end up with very few "acceptable" species for the "average" hobbyist.

JMHO

 

[Anonymous]

As for statistics...my employer, stated in a talk recently, that a staggering 40 % of corals and 60 % of fish specimens overall, DIE before they ever reach the end user, the hobbyist.

Your employer is wrong. Both of those mortality statistics are actually more in the neighborhood of 90%, based on the industry reports I've read.

In my opinion the real problem does not lie with hobbyists that frequent this and other educational websites, it is with those who just want to look at the fishies and not do any homework as to what each individual specimen needs.

Agreed, very much so. These people make up the majority of hobbyists, after all. Of course, to me, they provide exactly the reason why regulation of one sort or another is an absolute neccessity.

To address the original point of this thread, I don't think voluntary regulation will be effective in the manner intended... but I do think it could nevertheless have a positive impact. As Leonard rightly notes, only those who are responsible to begin with are likely to support such a voluntary system.You won't be reforming the ignorant, irresponsible types by such a measure.

However....
The bottom line is, government regulation is coming; the USCRTF has recommended as much and I expect to see it happen. IF a hobbyist initiative is already in place, no matter how ineffectual, the odds of getting the people who will write the regulations to accept hobbyist input into their formation are that much higher. Hand the legislators a package already in place and supported by at least a couple of percentage points of hobbyists, a package that addresses the reforms and regulations that they would be instituting, and I think it's likely that in some way, at least in part, it would be incorporated into their regulations.

 

[2poor2reef]

Steve, I am a little frustrated by your last post. You are advocating one solution to the problem (licensing) which would restrict hobbyists currently enjoyed freedom of choice. Then you warn that if we don'y do this the government will do something worse like ban the keeping of certain species. I am against both licensing and bans. Licensing is bad and bans are worse. I enjoy the freedom of choice I enjoy as an individual in this wonderful country. I regret the freedoms that we have already needlessly lost.

There are better alternatives to restricting peoples freedoms. Capitalism is a better alternative to communism for the same reason. Increase the cost of certain hard to keep species to the point where novices will think twice before wasting a specimen. Someone asked me for solutions on the prior page and I gave three off the top of my head. They would be more effective than licensing IMO becuase they effect people in the wallet and would preserve their freedom of choice. Yet no one comments on the alternative solutions to licensing or bans.

I don't think that we who disagree with you are the ones who aren't being open minded about solutions to the problem.

 

[Anonymous]

The last thing I want to do is to stand in line to get another license. They never seem to be free either. I'd just as soon keep my money in my own pocket and not have to worry about some bafoon in DC making my life just one degree more complicated than it already is. Permits and licenses? No thanks!!!

Ty

 

[Anonymous]

James: Whatchoo talkin bout, Willis? My (completed) editorial ran in november. Or are you trying to squeeze another one outta me?

 

[Anonymous]

Increase the cost of certain hard to keep species to the point where novices will think twice before wasting a specimen

In the past I've talked about putting a tax on wild collected corals as a means of putting economic incentive on purchasing captive propped/farmed/aquacultured corals instead. While I'd be willing to support such an arrangement, I suspect that when the government ultimately puts regulation in place they'll consider such an option to be too "soft".

But yes, I support the idea in theory.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SteveNichols:
<STRONG>cj,
That is exactly why i started this thread. Something that many people apparently aren't aware of is the fact that if we don't govern our hobby the government will. It can be seen in almost any aspect of life you look at. I wore seat belts so no law was needed for me. My children had child seats so no law was needed for me. Look around at the laws, you will see that they are for the people that don't use their brains. As I was once told, locks are there to keep people that might try something from trying it. The idiot that is going to commit a crime is probably going to do it anyway. It makes more sense to me for us to do the job rather than someone else. But then there are those that don't seem to understand that.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Steve, you propose that every one who wanted to keep salt-water tank takes a written exam, presented a certificate then they can go buy fish and coral. This will be the solution to our problem with the aquarium trade industry. I wonder who will decide what is on the test? and who give the exam? when can the exam be given? how many time one can take it? how in hell anyone will enforce this (won’t be the LFS and the person who buy the fish)? is this exam going to be given in a secure location? what are you going to do about cheating? Should I go on? I can type all day.

All I can say is you are so, so, so naïve; to the point of being funny.

My last post on this subject.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Minh... correct me if I'm wrong... but doesn't SCUBA certification work exactly the way Steve is suggesting?

 

[bigtank]

Why don't they take better care of corals and fish in the first place, so fewer would die??? This would make them cheaper. I think a 90% loss rate, from coral reef to home tank, is terrible and something should be done.

 

[SPC]

Charles, I just got finished re reading your editorial and just wanted to say thanks to you and the people who responded in the editorial discussion. For those who have participated in this current thread, do yourself a favor and read this if you haven't already.
Steve

 

[Minh Nguyen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjdevito:
<STRONG>Hey Minh... correct me if I'm wrong... but doesn't SCUBA certification work exactly the way Steve is suggesting?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Charles, SCUBA diving involves human life. Reef tanks do not.
I think there are big problems in the marine aquarium industry. I think the best solution involves control at the collection level, improves holding and transport. Increase in price of wild caught fish and coral and use this increase to enforce and regulate collections, holding and transport of animals. The increase in price of wild caught fish and corals will spur research and producing captive raise corals and fish.
Regulation at the buyer level is a waste to time and effort that doomed from the start.

This is my last post (number 2) on this subject