show character and BOYCOTT Indonesian fish

[saltcritter]

:?

Heard ALL! this 15-18 yrs ago, about FL.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

We have just sent more Orders to other countries and now we sit back and say, " What are they doing?".

America has it all and then try's to controll everybody+country to see things are way.

It is pretty small minded to sit back and enjoy the American life style and call shots to poor people in other lands, while you buy your $3.50 cup of coffie at Starbucks, every! morning.

It is best if you do not want to worry or buy, then vote with your wallet, calling there countries and officials in those countries does NOT! do squat.

Those countries could care less about our ideas, THEY ARE AFTER THE MONEY!!!

GET IT!!!

I heard all this 15-18 yrs ago.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Saving the whole world in NOT an option, WE are all just paricites ourselves eating away at the globe.

What happened to the Dino's?

God will figure it all out in the end!

How about sending money to these countries and help them Learn and teach there countries and children,
HEY!!! THERE'S A THOUGHT!!!

With every fish bought/caught we should ADD a $4.00 surcharge to Teach that country about what it best for all of us.
YYAAAA!!, skip 1 $4.00 coffie and send the money for Education of these countries?

Writeing Hate mail?, it is just going to end up in the trash can, you spend more time waiting in line for your $4.00 coffie. :wink:

Spend your time and money on, letters for our country, our children and or start a program to do a surcharge for these fish$corals, putting the funds into bombing those countries with Media about Coral and reef care?

Actions speek louder than words.

Just a very small thought, after hearing this for almost 20 yrs. :wink:

How many of you all give to the Homeless Shelters in your own neighborhood, instead of buying another Fish?

Maybe that shows how much you really care. :roll:

 

[wombat1]

I think it's pretty easy to open a book and find a fish that is endemic to somewhere other than Indonesia or anywhere else. If you really care enough and don't trust the person you're buying from, then buy a fish you know couldn't possibly have come from there. There's enough pretty fish endemic to Hawaii, the Caribbean, and the Red Sea, etc. to fill up your tank.

 

[Kalkbreath]

80% of all fish come from Indo. .just because some of the 400 or so collecters use the juice......should not mean that those that dont should be punished......the Carribean uses poison and there is a lot of cyanide in the Red Sea..........notice that there are very few little reef fish from Hawaii.............Thats because when you dont fish with chemicals, you can not get the fish out of the coral heads. Besides fish cought with juice are less stressed when transported.much like 'Being UNDER" when having open heart surgery.......without being tranquilized the stress ,banging around into the sdes of the bucket and going into shock harm the fish sometimes more then the juice! we just need to replace the old chemicals with better less damaging ones .........
_________________
apollo mist
_________________
Honda CL125

 

[MandarinFish]

I respectfully submit that in the massive chain of the islands of Indonesia, there are far more than 400 collectors, and far more than a few of them use cyanide.

I haven't heard about this problem happening with Hawaiian, Florida, Australian, Fijian, or aquacultured fish, but *always* hear how terrible the Phil. and Indo. fish trade is.

Not saying it can't or doesn't happen other places, and Red Sea fish are relatively rare (though around).

I just know the system with Indo./Phill. fish is completely broken and exists because hobbyists pay for it to happen.

 

[wombat1]

I haven't heard about this problem happening with Hawaiian, Florida, Australian, Fijian, or aquacultured fish, but *always* hear how terrible the Phil. and Indo. fish trade is.

I hope no aquaculturer is using cyanide!!!

 

[delbeek]

I think this thread just underscores the importance of what MAC is trying to do and its importance to the hobbyist. Once a chain of custody is in place, you WILL know where your fish come from. I'd like to know who is bringing in all these Indonesian fish since when I look at wholesalers price lists from LA and they list where the fish come from I rarely see Indonesia listed ... its mainly Fiji, Hawaii, Oceania (which really means Marshall Islands or Christmas Is.), Tonga, Fiji, Maldives, Red Sea and Indian Ocean.

 

[delbeek]

Moe.. crack open books, or look on fishbase.. and it will tell you where the fish comes from. Say you are dying to have a sixline wrasse... look it up, and you'll find it doesn't come from hawaii, so when the evil LFS tells you it's from hawaii you'll know he's a liar.

Jeremy: You shouldn't be so quick to lay blame on the LFS. You see, a lot of fish go into the trade VIA Hawaii ... so if a LFS says it comes from Hawaii he or she MAY only know the fish came out of Hawaii ... not that it was actually collected there. A lot of fish from the Philippines, the Marshalls and Christmas Is. are transhipped via Hawaiian wholesalers. I have seen a lot of fish listed on wholesalers price lists and on websites where they list the fish as coming from Hawaii when I know full well that species does not occur there. However, those fish most likely were shipped via Hawaii.

 

[JeremyR]

Moe.. crack open books, or look on fishbase.. and it will tell you where the fish comes from. Say you are dying to have a sixline wrasse... look it up, and you'll find it doesn't come from hawaii, so when the evil LFS tells you it's from hawaii you'll know he's a liar.

Jeremy: You shouldn't be so quick to lay blame on the LFS. You see, a lot of fish go into the trade VIA Hawaii ... so if a LFS says it comes from Hawaii he or she MAY only know the fish came out of Hawaii ... not that it was actually collected there. A lot of fish from the Philippines, the Marshalls and Christmas Is. are transhipped via Hawaiian wholesalers. I have seen a lot of fish listed on wholesalers price lists and on websites where they list the fish as coming from Hawaii when I know full well that species does not occur there. However, those fish most likely were shipped via Hawaii.

I guess I've always felt that if you are dealing in this stuff, it's your responsibility to know what you are dealing in, and where it's coming from. I've gone to the trouble to find out where all my fish are coming from.. is this too much to ask of your LFS? Do you feel that fish stores don't have the responsibility to do a little research to find this stuff out? This is a specialty hobby, and I believe LFS owners need to quit treating it like an average commodity that you just order and sell.

Do you guys think I'm being too harsh when I expect others in this trade to do the same research I have?

 

[SPC]

Posted by Jeremy:

This is a specialty hobby, and I believe LFS owners need to quit treating it like an average commodity that you just order and sell.

-Well said my friend, and many thanks for the approach you have taken .
Steve

 

[saltcritter]

:?

I figure that the hobby is still pretty pricey overall.

If the Wholesalers, LFS, the Higher End LFS stores and all other Media/Mag+book people/companies wanted to settle this issue they could. 8O

They all could band togeather and cut off the problems and resolve these issues for the hobby.

But why don't they you ask? :?

MONEY!!, our money and them being greedy for it.

A board/site like this and others can end the problem for good by setting up a active listing for Bad groups , Bad wholesalers , Bad companies that have been proven or who can not prove where they get these fish and or supplies.

Ask you self!!!!

Why these sites and companies on the Net do not do such a simple thing? :?

Why is there so much promotion in selling stuff, salt, lighting, carals , fish and SO!!!! little on this problem, if it is such a big problem?

Why is there not a single Web site directed to the information about such matters? only a few short blerps from these web sites. :?

I think it is a shame that all these problems can go on for 18yrs that I have seen it and still all the same talk no action from all these so called Good companies, wholesalers, web sites and the mix.

Now that the world has an easy way to get the word out with Web sites and all, Why? would the better Web sites not have special action sections and money drives to combat these kid of abuses? :evil:

I vote for an Imediate section/fourm in every Great Reef hobby Web site,( +reef related sites) directly speeking of these matters and actively collecting to send out Media about these problems and cutting off all the companies and related companies that let these problems continue.

If this site and every other web site does not care,( as you see alot of the hobby and other countries do not) than they WILL NOT ! set up ANY type of fourm to combat it.

I will DROP $20 right now! to a group/site that has a goal for this kind of problem solving forse. :wink:

Is there nobody of Higher morals at any of these sites that will start a grass roots effort to ban everyone togeather in this fight to educate and Ban certain sellers and companies that are greedy to kill off these reefs?

It would only take 1 Director, 1 bank account, 1 Fourm and the rest will sell itself if everybody is so concerned about DOING GOOD.

Pass that idea around.

I vote for THIS Site to be the Leader and set up such an Account!!

ANYBODY!! here believe in the effort? :?

If not, sit back and please do not post on this subject you lost your moral vote.

Silence killed the CAT!, cureiosidy brought it back. Don't be silent! :wink:

Let's all bring back the drive to save and grow the hobby, with this site being the Leader and all companies/wholesalers to follow this site in a grass roots effort!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's PowerDrive this Web Site to a newer level, as the most active group to save the reefs and do the right thing with more education about problems, than ANY other site.

Let's get the BAD Aquariums shut DOWN!!!

Let's get the Bad suppliers cut out of the deals!!!!!!

Let's start this right here and right now!!!!!!

I am calling for a Plan, COLLECTION!, and Active members to set up a Fourm , account, Director to keep Media pumping out there about this problem and find new ways to enforce the hoy rules.

I think starting with a BAD Guys / Fourm would be the easy thing to do and We can go from there with an active membership drive and fight over this problem.

Of course it would all have to be NON-Profit and totally member and Web site driven, by the better sites of course.

The lesser sites will not spend the time,money, manpower, or they are scared to disrupt there sponcers with this kind of proper Moral fight.

Well, it's up to US ALL!!!! Now!
Let's get going!!!, write down some notes and ideas. Send them to your Admin!!!

Get typeing to your Web Site Admin!!!, Tell them how you can help this get going and what you can do about it, or how much you can contribute.
Time, web knowledge, funds, experiance in setting up a non-profit account and getting a Director.

I have worked with this in another hobby and I have seen wonderfull things happen, that are growing and helping today.

It only takes a few people and a slight orginisation to see a Super!!! thing happen in this Hobby.

ACT NOW!!!, Strick while the iron is hot.

I am calling on ALL sites and people to put there money/time where there words and morals are!!!

Give untill it hurts!!!! :wink:

If everybody cares about PowerBuys as much as they do the reefs, then it should grow and be easy to do, becasue it is the right and Moral thing and is worth the time and effort. Much more than saving $5.00 on your order.

I am putting $2 on the table now!!!, what are you doing!!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

It would only take 1 Director, 1 bank account, 1 Fourm

You forgot "super legal team".

 

[Anonymous]

Saltcritter,

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=35&sid=

RR

 

[SPC]

Posted by saltcritter:

I have worked with this in another hobby and I have seen wonderfull things happen, that are growing and helping today.

-Would you expound on this a bit?
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

I do not and will not import fish from Indonesia. That being said, I feel compelled to comment on a few posts...



From Delbeek:

I'd like to know who is bringing in all these Indonesian fish since when I look at wholesalers price lists from LA and they list where the fish come from I rarely see Indonesia listed ... its mainly Fiji, Hawaii, Oceania (which really means Marshall Islands or Christmas Is.), Tonga, Fiji, Maldives, Red Sea and Indian Ocean.

Look at all the fish without a country of origin next to them. Those are the Indo/PI fish. Smart wholesalers don't advertise that they have an extensive amount of fish from Indo/PI. Also keep in mind that many of the fish listed as being from other countries of orgin are actually coming from Indo/PI. The variety of fish for this industry is in PI and Indo. Period. It's impossible to get high volume, cheap fish without going to those countries. They are the bread and butter of the industry and the overwhelmingly vast majority of imported fish come from these two countries.


From Wombat:

I think it's pretty easy to open a book and find a fish that is endemic to somewhere other than Indonesia or anywhere else. If you really care enough and don't trust the person you're buying from, then buy a fish you know couldn't possibly have come from there. There's enough pretty fish endemic to Hawaii, the Caribbean, and the Red Sea, etc. to fill up your tank.

Many fish are endemic to multiple countries. Here are a few examples:
Bicolor Angels, Lemonpeel Angels, Coral Beauty Angels, Blue Tang, Lots of triggerfish (humus, bursas, etc..), Tons of wrasses (coris, xmas, leopard, lunare, etc...), damsels, puffers, the list goes on and on and on. So you want a coral beauty?? Hey, they come from Fiji and Tonga- both clean countries. But wait- they also come from PI and Indo... Your LFS ordered it from a wholesaler who might have told them where it came from, might not, or might have lied. Good luck sorting it all out!

This industry is frustrating and everyone is so quick to jump on a bandwagon and think it's going to solve a problem. Every problem is so multilayered and complicated that fixing it isn't as easy as everyone thinks. It takes an ATTITUDE CHANGE. It takes WANTING TO DO THE RIGHT THING. It takes COMPASSION, CARING, AND COMMITTMENT. Unfortunately, those qualities don't make people the quick bucks in this industry and that's what 99% of people are out for.

For the MAC supporters:
Look at their list of exporters/importers who support what they are trying to do. It's very extensive and covers all the major players- both in Indo and PI and the US. If these people were so god-awful concerned with doing things right then why aren't they doing things right NOW??? Why do they put their name up on a MAC website and continue to support the cyanide trade?? MAC is a bandaid on a broken leg and a way for people doing the wrong thing to whitewash their practices and turn an even bigger profit. As I said earlier, the problems are too entrenched and multilayered for anything other than an absolute ATTITUDE CHANGE to correct them. That, or random cyanide testing here in the US when shipments come in. Even though that isn't perfect, I think it's a better alternative than certification. Joining MAC is VOLUNTARY. It is already against the law in PI and Indo to catch fish using cyanide- if you're caught you're looking at heavy fines and jail times (of course, getting caught is unlikely). So the collectors/exporters won't follow a MANDATORY law of their country, but they'll gladly follow a VOLUNTEER program?? Someone explain this to me, because it smells worse than a bag full 'o dead turbo snails!!

 

[saltcritter]

To ROVER AND SPC,

to ROVER:

My wife's sister is a SUPER LEGAL TEAM.
She runs her own Legal team and Associates and helped me for hours and hours with this same setup.
It is Legal and a forse to be reconed with, after all is set up and running of course. :evil:

to SPC:

I was SECT/TRES/V-PRES/EDITOR of a 280+ person group of hobby people and I set forth,( with the help of my Lawyer sister-in-law) a group to settle issues related to our hobby in the same mannor in witch I spoke, with the exception of the fact it was about Micro-Turbine engines.
My wifes father was also instrumental, do to the fact he is a Rocket Sciencetist and has deep understanding of those issues.



to Continue this issue:

In this hobby it would be a little different being that there are other Countries involved , BUT!!!, nevertheless it is the same prinicpal and VERY!! easy to controll the incomeing products from the Wholesale/Trade points.

A grass roots effort can be set forth with a Great web site such as this and a few others on board.

A simple few measures to start with and We are off and running.

If a Web Site such as this, (and others to sell products and information about the hobby) can be set up, it is 1/10th as easy to set up what I had outlined.

I could do it all myself with hardley any deep knowledge of the hobby and be a great sucess in little time, 1-2yrs max. :wink:

I am very busy with a few other issues, so my time can be used but very sparcley and the push needs a constant person at the Wheel to drive it and contact people. That is all it takes.

If you do not see your Average Web sites takeing the bull by the horns, well! ask yourselfs then, does it really matter to anybody in controll or that run Web Sites in this hobby? 8O

Everybody that has been around just a little in the hobby, know of the problems and or are aware that something is or might be going wrong with the enviroment/Reefs and the land.

Why do the sites sit out here have hardley any active drive for these issues?

Is it becasue people are just lazy?, or is it becasue we have ours and do not want things changed?

If your not a part of the solution, YOU! are a part of the problem! :?

Let me know where to send my $20, what group is being formed from this site? :roll:

Should I set it all up? :?
I need a comitted Web Site, plenty of available Megs for info.
I need 3 other Officers to set up the NON-Profit Corp.
I need funds to start the account and pay for advertising, government grants would be availble after this is going.
I need a meeting place to have written documentation each month, by law+ to keep legal. Short notes is all it takes.

I have all the other paperwork people can copy to see how it works.

OOOOOWell, any takers? :roll:

IT'S your world and reefs that are paying the price.

Silence should not be an option, will a forum start tomorrow?

I would not get tired of running such a group but I do get tired of reading about doom and gloom for 18yrs.

COME ON!!!, STAND UP and about face!, lets march!!!! :wink:

 

[saltcritter]

8O

www.eAngler.com to save some reef!!!, buy a license, if you use it or not.

Hey RIGHTY,

THANKS FOR TIP!!!

I do not see any real problem solving there?

I see some adds for employment and some fluff, but not REEF Police actions.

General conversation and www.eAngler.com ADVICE! :wink:

I am not on the Hunt to start another Group and run a police station over the hobby, but I did think it would be good motavation for those who wish to persue such active groups.

I am sure some good is being done as well all speak on this issue, but for people to say the sky is falling everytime you turn around and they are the first to not get involved, WELL, you get what you pay for.

I am going to plan on sending my $20 and then some to the Agencies in FL and I have already ordered my: www.eAngler.com license, so I am set for a few yrs and have done a little.

HAVE YOU ALL?

Just by a: www.eAngler.com license and even if you are not fishing/catching/or hunting you will be helping the effort for your computer room and you do not even have to get out of your seat.

It is the least you can do for your enviroment, as little as 8-9 bucks and as much as you want if you want to pay for a few yrs at a time.

THE SITE IS!!!!!!

www.eAngler.com and you can help SAVE our hobby and patrol the waters and the land!!!!!

COME ON!!!, MAKE THAT MOVE and spend a little to save a whole lot!
:wink:

 

[wombat1]

Mary HM wrote

Quote:
I think it's pretty easy to open a book and find a fish that is endemic to somewhere other than Indonesia or anywhere else. If you really care enough and don't trust the person you're buying from, then buy a fish you know couldn't possibly have come from there. There's enough pretty fish endemic to Hawaii, the Caribbean, and the Red Sea, etc. to fill up your tank.


Many fish are endemic to multiple countries. Here are a few examples:
Bicolor Angels, Lemonpeel Angels, Coral Beauty Angels, Blue Tang, Lots of triggerfish (humus, bursas, etc..), Tons of wrasses (coris, xmas, leopard, lunare, etc...), damsels, puffers, the list goes on and on and on. So you want a coral beauty?? Hey, they come from Fiji and Tonga- both clean countries. But wait- they also come from PI and Indo... Your LFS ordered it from a wholesaler who might have told them where it came from, might not, or might have lied. Good luck sorting it all out!

OK, so don't buy a coral beauty. Buy a C. potteri or C. argi. I always took "endemic" to mean that species only exists in a small geographic area, like Hawaii or the Red Sea. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "endemic to multiple countries" doesn't make any sense. What I'm saying is you might not be able to pick the prettiest fish or the one you've always wanted to have and know exactly where it came from. There are lots of other cool fish to pick from.

 

[MaryHM]

My use of the word endemic may have been incorrect. However, look at it this way. The majority of fish you find in the clean countries can be found in other countries too. If you say that exporters can only ship out the fish that are not found in PI/Indo then you have just shut the clean exporters down. They can't rely on shipping out 10 species. This is what I mean by the problem being so multilayered. Yes, it's fine and dandy if the handful of elite hobbyists say we aren't going to buy even clean coral beauties because of the risk that they may have come from Indo, but unfortunately this hobby isn't made up of the elite. Heck, the majority aren't even educated about the hobby, much less elite!

When you guys get all fired up behind a cause on the boards, please remember that for every one of you there are 20000 hobbyists who don't care, 5000 hobbyists who do care but will never hear about your efforts, and maybe 10 people who actually care and are willing to do something. After trying to rally the hobbyists numerous times around different causes, only 1 of which actually made a difference, I have learned that lesson the hard way. Just call me CynicalMaryHM The only thing I have hope in now is that a cyanide detection test will be created (being worked on now) that will allow Fish & Wildlife to test shipments here in the states. Do you all know that it is already illegal to import cyanide caught fish?? Falls under the Lacey Act- can't import something into US that has been obtained illegally in another country. All of the boycotting and MACing could never have the impact that that one little test could have. If you want to send your money to something that will actually make a difference- research on this test- let me know and I'll contact the person in charge and see if he's interested.

 

[wombat1]

Cynical MaryHM wrote:

If you want to send your money to something that will actually make a difference- research on this test- let me know and I'll contact the person in charge and see if he's interested.

Sounds like a great idea, I'd be willing to contribute to this. Sorry, I didn't mean to get defensive. We're all hoping for the same thing and we're all on the same side. The majority of people buying saltwater fish hardly know how to take care of them much less care where they came from, so you're right, a boycott by the 1% who care won't have much impact. My original post was intended to answer how to find out exactly where a fish came from, if someone cared enough to do that. While it's nearly impossible to know exactly where a coral beauty came from, someone can eliminate all doubt by not buying one and choosing a different species. Maybe it's only helping out their peace of mind, but so be it. It won't be hurting the sales of any distributors because there will always be brand newbies buying coral beauties and lemonpeels and everything else down at Petco.

 

[MandarinFish]

(slightly modified for my purposes)

Young man walks down the beach, sees horseshoe crabs trying to get to the sea.

Many are ashore and are struggling in the heat of the sun. Many of them are dying trying to reach the safety of the water.

Young man picks them up, one at a time, and tosses them back in the sea where they belong.

Old man comes walking the other way and tells the young man he is crazy; that there will always be dying horseshoe crabs on the beach, this can't be stopped by one person, and that there is no point because one person cannot make a difference.

Young man looks down at the horseshoe crab in his hand and replies "I'm making a difference for this animal" as he puts it in the water.