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If you read the original paper they do not come to the conclusion that it is definitely from humans. Many editorialists with their own agenda are interpreting this human origin. The bacteria lives in other animals and is also found in soil. These editorialists are bastardizing the original research for political reasons.
pcmankey":2j3amnaa said:If you read the original paper they do not come to the conclusion that it is definitely from humans. Many editorialists with their own agenda are interpreting this human origin. The bacteria lives in other animals and is also found in soil. These editorialists are bastardizing the original research for political reasons.
Since the original paper is not published until tomorrow, I must commend you for being quite on top of this.
However, if you read even the first paragraph of the paper -- ie., the abstract, you will read the following:
Populations of the shallow-water Caribbean elkhorn coral, Acropora palmata, are being decimated by white pox disease, with losses of living cover in the Florida Keys typically in excess of 70%. The rate of tissue loss is rapid, averaging 2.5 cm2day-1, and is greatest during periods of seasonally elevated temperature. In Florida, the spread of white pox fits the contagion model, with nearest neighbors most susceptible to infection. In this report, we identify a common fecal enterobacterium, Serratia marcescens, as the causal agent of white pox. This is the first time, to our knowledge, that a bacterial species associated with the human gut has been shown to be a marine invertebrate pathogen.
So did I miss something, or did Rush Limbaugh?
Anemone of the State":cqg40r1h said:The paper, by the way, will be published in tomorrow's edition of Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/092260099v1
FWIW, the article has been available for purchase online since 6/19/02. Look at the top of the abstract page says "published online before print" or something like that. To buy it and print it out just click on the option to print in PDF at the top right hand side of the screen. The complete article is 6 pages long and costs $5. I bought and downloaded it last week and posted a summary of the article in the link provided by Chucker above. After reading it, you will find that as PC mentioned the media reporting of the article is not a completely accurate representation of what is contained in the article...there is also some discussion of this in Eric Borneman's forum. But then again when was the last time you saw honesty in the news?
You may be missing the point...
I was reading earlier that global warning was causing this horrible pox -- though not one single scientific datum could be produced as evidence. Someone just said that in an attempt to paint the gloomiest picture possible for the sake of their political argument.
It's not so much saying that humans aren't part of the problem as pointing out the possibility of a reporting perspective based on someone's agenda and emphasizing that perspective when the cause could be more widespread.
That's just me, though. I don't care for folks who immediately spin any report to match their political agenda, and as such I tend to be critical of the reporters when I see something -- as PCmankey seems to be.
I was reading earlier that global warning was causing this horrible pox -- though not one single scientific datum could be produced as evidence. Someone just said that in an attempt to paint the gloomiest picture possible for the sake of their political argument.
It's not so much saying that humans aren't part of the problem as pointing out the possibility of a reporting perspective based on someone's agenda and emphasizing that perspective when the cause could be more widespread.
That's just me, though. I don't care for folks who immediately spin any report to match their political agenda, and as such I tend to be critical of the reporters when I see something -- as PCmankey seems to be.
Anemone of the State":1un0q8n8 said:Dismissal of the idea that any environmental problem might have human origins. You are right, though, it could be a bunch of sea-faring cows with urinary tract infections pissing on Fla coral reefs. :roll:
AOTS, I never dismissed that any environmental problem may be of human origin--your just making stuff up now. Where do you get your scientific data and analysis? Oh, I know--it must be Alec Baldwin and that researching genius and enviromentalist Leonardo DiCaprio.
Moose22":3ascxmqj said:You may be missing the point...
I was reading earlier that global warning was causing this horrible pox -- though not one single scientific datum could be produced as evidence.
To the contrary. Numerous studies support the idea that elevated seawater temperatures stress corals. In respone, coral immunity drops and infections and other environmental stimuli are harder to hit the corals.
Perhaps when you heard that global warming was causing it, they meant that indirectly. There is no doubt in my mind that these corals would be able to cope just fine with many of these diseases if were not subjected to heat stress.
As I've state before, I'm very fortunate to be able to work and study with Jim Porter, the author. I know his opinions on the inputs, but his work is explicitly more objective. The fact that the media has "bastardized" his work by making a link between the lack of human waste and this offshore disease would probably not upset him. If you read his paper, the link is implied, but never expressly stated. Good scientists don't overextend their results. However, I would not be surprised to see future work focus on just how vital the shore based inputs are to the FL Keys Reefs.
Nothing bad can come out of this "bastardization". There is no disputing the fact that septic tanks in porous limestone is a HORRIBLE idea. The communities of the Keys have been dragging their heels on this one for quite a while, and if the recent media encourages the Federal or State govt to become more involved in funding the conversion to sewage, it will only help the offshore reefs.
And seriously, how much do you know about serratia? You are quick to quote that it is found in other animals, but can you tell me the ones? You'd be surprised. There are often very few American Buffalo out on the reefs.
And, it is found in soil. I don't know how often you visit the Keys, but there is no soil. And in all the time I've spent on reefs, I've never seen soil there either.
If you'd like to learn more about Serratia, please visit the link posted below.
It is worth noting that Porter really covers his bases by stating that it is found in soil and in other animals. But, the medical journals and soil science journals seem to think it is somewhat limited to the human species as a pathogen.
http://www.projectlinks.org/serratia/
It is worth noting that Porter really covers his bases by stating that it is found in soil and in other animals. But, the medical journals and soil science journals seem to think it is somewhat limited to the human species as a pathogen.
http://www.projectlinks.org/serratia/
Are there raw sewage outlets in the area? Are you saying that it is leeching through the limestone? There is a contradiction in your statement. You said that there are no Buffalo on the reefs, but then say that the sewage is seeping through the limestone. If that's the case then it could come from rivers anywhere on the eastern seaboard which contain run-off from agriculture and range land and swept there by currents. In any case it is not known--if you draw conclusions when you don't know, especially when you do it with a politcal agenda in mind, that is junk science. If the pathogen can seep through miles and miles of terrestrial land then it could come from river outlets and get there by currents from virtually anywhere. If there is a raw sewage pipe dumping on the reef then that's different, but until you know exactly how it got there you cannot start sounding global alarms. And the global warming connection is laughable. There are tempertature changes on these reefs from year to year, they would all already be wiped out--the temps there now are not the hottest there have ever been. And if the researchers are stating that it is definitely from human waste then let them say so.
"the medical journals and soil science journals seem to think it is somewhat limited to the human species as a pathogen."
Well obviously not--the coral is infected by it--and how many other organisms? Don't you think it is a little strange that it affects humans and one species of coral only? What about other primates? What about other corals?
"The fact that the media has "bastardized" his work by making a link"
The media has gone much much futher than making a simple link--they state outright that it is a "human pox" caused by human pollution and global warming. If Porter is willing to make that claim then let him state it and then back it up. That is a bastardization of what he reported--as you said he covered all bases. The reason he covered all bases is because he has to--he doesn't know how it got there.
And if you think there have to be cows and buffalo living on the reef to release a pathogen you are lacking in imagination. Eric Bourneman over on Reef Central, addressing this issue, referred to another coral disease that is thought, in part, to be spread from atmospheric dust settling from Africa. So much for the need for swimming cows and buffalo.
"the medical journals and soil science journals seem to think it is somewhat limited to the human species as a pathogen."
Well obviously not--the coral is infected by it--and how many other organisms? Don't you think it is a little strange that it affects humans and one species of coral only? What about other primates? What about other corals?
"The fact that the media has "bastardized" his work by making a link"
The media has gone much much futher than making a simple link--they state outright that it is a "human pox" caused by human pollution and global warming. If Porter is willing to make that claim then let him state it and then back it up. That is a bastardization of what he reported--as you said he covered all bases. The reason he covered all bases is because he has to--he doesn't know how it got there.
And if you think there have to be cows and buffalo living on the reef to release a pathogen you are lacking in imagination. Eric Bourneman over on Reef Central, addressing this issue, referred to another coral disease that is thought, in part, to be spread from atmospheric dust settling from Africa. So much for the need for swimming cows and buffalo.
Dr. Reef":20wv2eld said:Moose22":20wv2eld said:You may be missing the point...
I was reading earlier that global warning was causing this horrible pox -- though not one single scientific datum could be produced as evidence.
To the contrary. Numerous studies support the idea that elevated seawater temperatures stress corals. In respone, coral immunity drops and infections and other environmental stimuli are harder to hit the corals.
Don't get me wrong, Doc. I'm not saying that seawater temperature or some other climactic change can't be proven. I'm saying that that individual did not produce anything. Additionally, these may be contributory, but not necessarily the actual cause.
It's like saying that someone elderly with a bad disease died of the heat because they passed on a very warm day. They died of the disease, their old age and the heat made them less able to fight it off. But someone who runs an air conditioner company might spin it as "Heat is killing people! We're all at risk!"
I apologize for not digging up the original story. With context it's easier to explain the difference between fear mongering and presenting a study of all contributing factors without the spin.
pcmankey":1y3dgja1 said:1)Are there raw sewage outlets in the area? Are you saying that it is leeching through the limestone?
2) If that's the case then it could come from rivers anywhere on the eastern seaboard which contain run-off from agriculture and range land and swept there by currents.
3) In any case it is not known--if you draw conclusions when you don't know, especially when you do it with a politcal agenda in mind, that is junk science. If the pathogen can seep through miles and miles of terrestrial land then it could come from river outlets and get there by currents from virtually anywhere.
4) There are tempertature changes on these reefs from year to year, they would all already be wiped out--the temps there now are not the hottest there have ever been.
5) Eric Bourneman over on Reef Central, addressing this issue, referred to another coral disease that is thought, in part, to be spread from atmospheric dust settling from Africa. So much for the need for swimming cows and buffalo.
1) I am not saying it is leeching thru the limestone. Gene Shinn is. He used isotope tracer nutrients and deposited them into septic tanks thru toilets in the Keys. Then he looked for them to show up on the shore. It sometimes took only 4 hours to show up, and often these nutrients would leach out in less than a day.
2) You can familiarize yourself with the drainage basins of the eastern seaboard. While the Gulf shore flow does carry a minimal amount of matter from the Mississippi, the greatest contributor to the Florida Bay is from the Everglades. It is heavlity debated whether the bay and the everglades runoff can reach the reefs, whether underground flow carries nutrients and waste, or whether it is natural from mangroves and resuspension on the continental shelf farther out to sea from the reefs. In any case, there is a small chance that it is from runoff from all over the Eastern seaboard, although a possiblity exists that it could come from the EAA south of Lake Okechobee if flow thru the Everglades into the BAy can even reach the reefs. I refer you to the ongoing battle between Brian LaPointte(1993) and Alina Szmant (1997).
3) I don't know why there would be miles of limestone for waste to leach thru. Our house sits only 10 meters from the shore.
4) I'm not sure if you are familiar with the SST satellite imaging system that is public domain and paid for by your and my taxes. It is even on the web for you to follow. It is a way to let researchers know of potential bleaching areas based on above average sea surface temperatures (SST's). It is quite effective so far and only improves with time as more temperatures are reported from aroud the world. This data suggests that summer temperatures have been increasing and bleaching anomolies have become more frequent over the past decades.
5) I am familiar with the African Dust cloud theory. And it is just that. I have yet to see published papers that can directly link cause and effect. I think the idea first sprang up at the 2000 Bali Symposium. However, since that paper came out stating the possibility, subsequent works have shown that fungus to be common throughout soils and substrata in the US as well. That seems more likely. Again, no conclusive work. The fungus attacks sea fans and gorgonians predominantly.
It seems to me that you are arguing that 100,000 people urinating and defecating into porous holes in the ground that need only travel thru at most 500m of limestone on the widest areas can in no way affect the health of the very near coral reefs.
You could be correct, but for now, I choose to disagree.
Brian
I never stated that human waste was not the cause. I don't know why everyone who assumes that to be the case keeps putting words in my mouth. All I am saying is that it is grossly irresponsible to have headlines like "Human Pox on Reef," without conclusive evidence. It doesn't matter how much you want to believe what you believe--only the truth matters. If you are wrong then the real mechanism goes unknown and endless resources are wasted barking up the wrong scientific tree. E. Borneman's BB is on Reef Central under Coral Forum. He is not online 24/7.
Posted by pcmankey:
-I think that this headline "Human Pox On Reef" is accurate to a certain degree, wouldn't you?
Steve
I never stated that human waste was not the cause. I don't know why everyone who assumes that to be the case keeps putting words in my mouth. All I am saying is that it is grossly irresponsible to have headlines like "Human Pox on Reef," without conclusive evidence. It doesn't matter how much you want to believe what you believe--only the truth matters. If you are wrong then the real mechanism goes unknown and endless resources are wasted barking up the wrong scientific tree.
-I think that this headline "Human Pox On Reef" is accurate to a certain degree, wouldn't you?
Steve
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