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RichardS

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Fragmaster - I found it...my first "advanced" sw book when I was a teenager. It's "The Marine Aquarium in Theory and Practice" by Dr. Cliff W. Emmens copyright 1982.

On filtration it has...
The best and most widely used biological filter in smaller salt-water tanks (i.e. less than a few hundred gallons) is the undergravel filter.

Then it has one small paragraph on the new "Natural System" advocated by Mr. Lee Chin Eng of Jarkarta. The pic of his tank is the only one in the book with live rock in the tank. It says...

The "natural" tank has a thin-ish layer of sand, rocks and coral in abundance with algae, anemones, worms and other invertebrates forming a quite dense population....
Statistics have just not accumulated to allow a detailed appraisal of this system. Most people who have reported on it (mainly verbally) have stated that it doesn't work, and that sooner or later a drastic collapse occurs and a very smelly wipe-out has to be cleaned up.

Good thing that approach never caught on... :wink:
 

The_Big_Fish

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What was the point of that post?
Where does it say anything about this TBC or right now bacteria,or prove it works in a reef? I am joining late but have paifully read all of the other posts. Fragmaster seemed to ask for proof that it works in a reef system.
Now if I am reading your post correctly ( reading bewteen the lines) your sarcasticly stating that Lee chin eng's method did catch on and it some how relates to this "new science" correct?
I dont see how this relates at all? Not to mention it was written in 1982 8O . Plenums, undergravel filters....are pretty much none existant even in a freshwater tank these days.

please explain this.
Thanks
 

RichardS

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What was the point of that post?

Oh I don't know. I was just cleaning out the room that I am setting up my sps prop system in using TBPC/RN & PH rock and I found that old book. Made me think of Fragmaster for some reason.

Could have been something like...Things change and people learn new things but at first there are always those who cling to what they already know and deny that there could possibly be a different way.
 

The_Big_Fish

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There could be somthing better. I think the majority are waiting on photographed results showing the system in use on a reef system.
Those photos shown in chronological order of the tank maturing as a reef system with the "new way" in place would prove it works to all I would think.
Pictures are worth a thousands words. Words are worth the paper they are written on. :)
 
A

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That's hilarious, Richard. I can imagine with what horror that author would regard the "Berlin" method.
And that does serve as a reminder that methods do change. But it takes a lot more evidence than couple people saying "I can't tell you how it works, but I swear it does".
 
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OK, folks, Richard sent me the links to this site/discussion. I've JUST registered, so that's why this is my first post.

My background:

I'm a molecular biologist by education - never used it for gainful employment, I dropped out of a PhD program at Rice to get a real job. I've been in the hobby over 35 years. I started working at a LFS when I was in the 7th grade - it was legal back then! I worked there thru college - and was around when the saltwater hobby was just getting started. My first marine tank was in 1971. My purpose for saying all of this is so that you folks understand that I'm not a newbie, and that I possess a scientific background with enough education to understand the bs and the science. It also gives me the "devil's advocate" attitude that I have for this grand experiment! To say I've not bought into this, is an understatement.

I currently have a 55g reef tank, that's been up for about 5 years. I'm successfully growing sps at the top of the tank under T5s. Not intentionally, but I bought this 215 as package, and got some of his sps at the same time. My intention was to keep it alive in the time it takes to get this thing off the ground.

Here's where I am/what I have:
215 Oceanic Brick
1200w MH (3x400, double ended, 10K)
2x1200 gph closed loop system
40 gallon sump - I bought the sump/fuge before I decided to do this, and set up the sump anyway
2400gph pump in the sump, supplying water to the tank. Tank drains by means of a calfo at one end
About 3/4" of recycled sand - it's been sitting on my deck for about 2 months in a big tub. Just rinsed and added.

Friday March 17th, PM, added 200 lbs rock - most was Tonga Branch. Straight out of the shipping box from Walt Smith into a bucket where it was brush cleaned and then put into the tank. I have an 85lb rock I purchased from the prior owner that goes in once the tank is up and working - it has sps on it.

By Saturday, the tank STINKS.

Tuesday, tank readings: NH3/NH4: All I can say is the tube was GREEN
Nitrate: Over 20ppm - probably 25-30 (chart goes from 20-40)

Tuesday evening, I add one Torpedo (about 12 lbs of Tribase Carbon that I got from Richard at CB Pets) into one of the 1200 gph closed loops. I need 2 more, but Snake is out of stock.

Thursday, tank readings: NH3/NH4: 0.50ppm
Nitrate: <10ppm

Today: Same as above.

Stink is gone & water is gin clear - of course, one would expect that with 12lbs of carbon!

I'll keep everyone updated!

P.S. Richard/CB Pets has had their softie tank on a small version of this for 8 months - and everything is THRIVING. Their tiny skimmer picks up about an ounce every week on a 75g tank. Richard will probably slap me for telling y'all this... Oh well. They have been VERY conservative on this whole deal. They don't want a bunch of their customers jumping into this and then not have it work long term. That's why they aren't hyping it much. In my case, 1) it's cost is about what I'd pay for a top quality skimmer and 2) (Richard, don't read this) I can afford it.
 

The_Big_Fish

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Well that proves it helps with cycling rock any ways.

Would it be possible for you to post photo's of your setup with the TBC in action as it matures?
Thanks.
 
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I'll be happy to post some photos - I'll take some this afternoon.

One of the things that intrigues me: If NOTHING ELSE WORKS, with a "torpedo", a bottle of his starter bacteria and a pump, could one have a "crash cart" for use in the case of a tank crash? What a great item for a local club to have for emergency use.
 

The_Big_Fish

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Thats how I see the ultimate end usage of this. A temporary fix, or to quick cure rock. Which would still make it a good product.
I am just not sure about long term.
Everything ultimately circles back around.
If your replacing the denitrificarting bacteria with the RN Then it is only a matter of time until the natural bacteria builds it self back up, and the tank crashes.

A crash cart would be awsome if it realy does work as you are saying it does in the short game. What better way to save your live stock from certain death and the shock of having to do an emergncy move into another tank.

Still waiting on those pics before I make up my mind about even the short game though. Got to see to believe :)
 
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I realize that this is a NANO thread. If a moderator decides to split this off, that would be cool...

Day 8 (after adding rock), Today's numbers:
NH3/NH4: 0.25-0.50ppm (down a little from yesterday)
Nitrate: ~10ppm (maybe up a bit from yesterday)

I'm running the lights about 8 hours a day, and the green you see is a handful of chaeto I threw in, just for the heck of it. There is a little bit of brown diatom growth in the corners you can see.

Looks like I can't post pix - I guess I'm not "senior" enough? Here's a link:
http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNp ... 104#180104
 

The_Big_Fish

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I take it thats the rock that bleached out and died on you spoke about earlier then?
It has the beginings of a very nice tank.
here me out on this though. ( amuse me :) ).
If there is no bacteria on the rock to begin with how is this comparable to using this system in an established reef, or in a new reef set up using rock that is already cured? Dead rock has no bacteria on it to die off and wont spike parameters anyway. At least not as bad as raw rock would or any where near it.

It realy does look like it will be a nice set up when your finished though.
 
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Fish,

I'm not sure what you mean:

Yes, the rock bleached. If you will note, I put the rock into the tank around midnight on Friday night. It wasn't until Tuesday - 4 days later - that the carbon filtration was added. If you've ever cured live rock - a BUNCH of it - you can imagine what the tank was like by Tuesday. A death zone.

As for bacteria - what makes you think that what we normal use in our tanks is any more "natural" than what I have in this tank? Remember, the CARBON bed is - allegedly - where the process takes place. Again allegedly, the carbon has many times the surface area of live rock. Bacteria, by their "nature", don't easily give up their "spots". If they have colonized on the carbon and in the rock, AND they "like" what they have, they aren't likely to be easily replaced. If they were, we could fight bacterial infections by using less noxious bacteria to fight each other.

My reason for the rock is 3 fold:

1) it looks good (well, it WILL look good)

2) I already had it ordered

3) I'm going to be keeping SPS - I need SOMETHING closer to the surface to grow it on!

Believe me, I have a BIG dose of doubt here. But, I'm willing to try it out. I keep telling them: I'm SIPPING their Koolaide!
 

The_Big_Fish

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My reasoning lies directly with the carbon, and the RN.
If I understand the usage of this system it is basicly a bioball filter (meaning mass surface area of the carbon is comparable to bioballs) with an "instant" bacteria kick-starter.

BUT: Carbon absorbs chemical compounds no matter how well you rinse it. All sorts of nasties will be absorbed by the carbon breeding all sorts of the wrong type of bacteria over time being feed by the nasties in the carbon its self.

The Bacteria that your introducing into the system is not natural, its cultured, man made. What happends when your LR starts to develope its own natural bacteria? Will this new RN colonize the rock and substrate permenantly? If it dosent then will a bacterial warfare will be the end result , and a tank crash shortly after when the LR matures, and starts to re-grow the microbial bacteria that is present in small numbers now?

What I ment by bleached dead rock was this:
If you scrubbed it down before it died off, then it died off again and bleached that means a lack of large enough microbial colonies present to sustain the rock.
Since you put it in to the tank as wet base rock ( basicly) Then there couldnt have been that large of a spike in anything since there were no large numbers of microbial colonies on the rock to start with.
So the addition of the RN a couple days later just stabelized it so it could colonize again right? Its not in a curing stage right now. Its in a "needs to be seeded" stage. JMHO.

But that idea is superseded by your readings from the test kits you gave a couple posts up that I aprerantly missed LOL!! As well as the fact that you stated you had put the rock in directly from the box. ( I guess I was runing posts together or somthing? LOL).
I just thought I would explain my train of thought on it at the time.

Like I said your set up looks very nice and has GREAT potential using that rock. I love the shapes.

This whole topic and discussion is very interesting to me and I will be asking alot of questions that may seem obstrusive , or "picky".
I just want to understand in every detail how this works/will work.
I am not trying to argue with you so please dont take it that way :) . I am only trying to draw out every possible effect or reaction this could cause on yours/our systems long term, as far as the carbon absortbtion, and the potential RN back-fireing over time when the LR re-colonizes its self.
( circle of life type thing. What was once will be again over time.)
Cost effectiveness ( every thing needs replacing even high grade carbon).

So I take it you have the TBC set up in that red hydrant looking cylinder inline with your filter? Hense the name "torpedo" I guess huh? LOL!
Where is the PH rock? ( or are you only using the RN and the TBC?)
 
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I'll address a couple of your points:

The bacteria are not "man made", nor genetically engineered. They ARE a naturally occuring bacteria. Introduction of a "man made" or genetically engineered bacterium would result in SEVERE penalties to someone who does this without approval.

The carbon, as a bed for bacteria - like the live rock - has probably 1000s of times more surface area as the rock - or that bio balls would have. So, the theory goes, these are the bacteria that do the cleanup work.

I gather that this guy has developed a support system - the carbon - for a species or few of bacteria that process NH4 to N2 - which is gassed off. If this works, and believe me, I'm as tough to convince as anyone is, then it truely is revolutionary. Do I believe it will work long term? Nope.

BTW, I was at CB Pets yesterday. They have a 150, I believe, that is 1 month and 1 day old. It's running this system in 2 canister filters - I'm guessing about 10 lbs of carbon, so it's way undersized. It has about 15 fish in it, a bunch of corals and LOOKS GREAT. It's had fish & corals in it since day 1.

I welcome discussion. However, all I ask is that people say what they KNOW, not what they've heard or what they believe to be true.
 

trido

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If this works, and believe me, I'm as tough to convince as anyone is, then it truely is revolutionary. Do I believe it will work long term? Nope.

There you have it!! Another critic. Dont forget to keep us posted.

You to skylab!
 
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Just got a new NH4 test kit. I'd been using an old Aquarium Pharm. Kit, that I'd forgotten has a minor false positive indicator. I just tested with a brand new Salifer kit:

Day 10:
NH4: ZERO
Nitrate: ~15ppm

My belief is that the NH4 has been 0 for several days - the old kit was showing 0.25+. I also had my LFS test it, and it was also zero.
 

skylab1

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Ok, it’s been a busy weekend for me trying to finish upgrade the coral system.

I see more people are joining the discussion that's great.
I am currently working on a few projects using this very system: a 90 gallon in a restaurant, a pond and another 180 gallon. I have some picture on the 90 gallon in the restaurant I’ll post them as soon as I able to process the data. I will also ask some of my customer to send in pictures of their tank so I can post them as well. I was going to address some of the big fish’s question, but since Bill did a nice job answering them I’ll leave it as is.
 

The_Big_Fish

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Introduction of a "man made" or genetically engineered bacterium would result in SEVERE penalties to someone who does this without approval

His work has patten on it so it aproved.
I should have rephrased and left it at its not a natural occuring bacteria in the reef aquarium then to avoid confusion.

All of snakes data posted tends to look like these are selective species in high concentration which were cultured, and are not commonly present in the reef aquarium. Other wise how could it have been tested in freshwater in a sewer plant, then move on to saltwater with the same bacteria?
By culturing several different species in a dish,and adding his "special" recipe or what ever it is to it.
The same way "Cycle" did it, and many other companies that offer faster cycling bacteria that claim to be different.
Culturing is not bioengineering is it?.
Cross breeding bacteria isnt considered bioengineering is it?
If he were using a controlled virus or substance then it would be I am sure. Surely not for NH4 and N2 feeding bacteria?

"I welcome discussion. However, all I ask is that people say what they KNOW, not what they've heard or what they believe to be true.

We dont know anything about this system obviously or we would not be asking questions. Every question we ask is going to be speculative based on vauge information already given. Every point brought up for discussion will ofcourse be based on what we know to be true in our own systems, and what modern marine experts and science tell us to be true. We dont all have backgrounds in molecular science,biotechnology and, bioengineering. ;)

At least we both agree with my main concern though. Longevity. :)
 
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