5 Gallon Nano tank

[Omni2226]

So the carbon is a optimum area/home for the bugs. So if you have other suitable homes (live rock and sand) you dont need the carbon?...mmmm..

Ok I am totaly lost now. Why package the tricarbon with the bugs then?
And why does it have to be a special tricarbon? Why not just package it with regular old aquarium carbon?

 

[Bill S]

OK, let's see if we can understand the purpose of the carbon - tri base or otherwise - believe me, it was a big stumbling block for me too.

The carbon, when it's first used, DOES act just like regular carbon. HOWEVER, beyond that point, the carbon is used SIMPLY AS A HOME for the bacteria. Let's get over that hurdle first.

The reason why carbon works so well as a purification/filtration agent, IS BECAUSE OF IT'S MASSIVE SURFACE AREA. Go back and read my prior post. A MILLION SQUARE FEET (minimum) OF SURFACE AREA PER POUND!!!! There's no way live rock/sand can get anywhere near that number.

Think of it this way. If you have a 100 gallon tank, put 10,000 lbs of live rock in it for filtration/bacteria habitat... OK, NOW I SEE :idea:

Now, why tri-base versus regular? I'm told - as I noted above - that the tri-base supplies a useable carbon to the bacteria that other carbon doesn't have. The carbon is used up as part of the chemical reaction taking place within the bacteria in the conversion process of NH4 to N2. Again, what I've been told. Again, the tri-base really isn't all that expensive. For my tank, with an expected life of say 3 years (4 or 5 is published, I'm being conservative), it's only about $100 a year.

 

[Omni2226]

300 dollors will buy a lot of really nice live rock for me..that will last for a lifetime.

Meh I will just stick with my undergravel filters and bubblewands...

 

[Bill S]

Try buying rock for a 215... OUCH!

 

[Omni2226]

A bit off topic but for large systems...buy portland cement..rocksalt like you make icecream with..mix the rocksalt in the cement...form what ever shapes/sizes you want.

Cure the "rocks". As they cure the salt will melt leaving pourous rocks that make excellent base rocks for a fraction of the cost.

 

[Snake USMC]

Hello there,

How are things going?

Concerning the TBPC, nope it is not a stumbling block, too little to stumble on unless you are a very very very tiny person? In that case, you probably could stumble on a doll’s shoe in a doll house. (Hey you, quite stumbling on that piece of carbon! Get up and brush yourself off!)

The TBPC some of my clients have use the same carbon for over 7 years. So the cost, once you buy it, is less than if you were to buy, say a couple skimmers, Calcium reactor, Refuge (English name for a Latin plant tank) sump, which put together does cost and still does not every perform to the same level of the Hiatt Totally Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle.

So if you were to buy a very expensive rock or fish, in the regular system you must test every so often to ensure your tank does not go south. (Mine went North and froze it hiney off) This way, you don’t have to constantly worry about if someone over feeds, etc and if you do, the Hungry Guys really start to chow down (like we do in the Chow Hall) and they save your expensive fish, corals, etc. So look as it as an insurance policy instead.

Remember no on is going to sneak into your house at night and change your filter system unless you have been cursed by the Filter Fairy. Then you also have to worry about your dog and cat running away and living with each other - OH perish the thought!!!!!

Sea World’s staff is now looking hard at the system. It will save their fish and reduce costs of labor. But what the heck, what do THOSE people know about fish anyway?????

Have a wonderful day and be sure to lock your doors and windows tight at night otherwise the Filter Fairy could pay you a visit, but not tooooooo tight otherwise the Tooth Fairy will not be able to get in nor will Santa Clause.

El Snake O watching the Nano Reef O with a BOX filter O and 4 fish O having a good time O.

Ps, the fish did say they are having a good time, I heard it myself when I walked by their aquarium, (Now where did I put my Jack Daniels???)

 

[Omni2226]

Very nice...sarcasm from someone who wants me to spend money on a pig in a poke. Oh well this will be my last post in this thread..im off to syphon my undergravel filters.

I will drop in to veiw pictures of skylabs and the others tanks though..if and when they post any.

 

[Len]

The TBPC some of my clients have use the same carbon for over 7 years. So the cost, once you buy it, is less than if you were to buy, say a couple skimmers, Calcium reactor, Refuge (English name for a Latin plant tank) sump, which put together does cost and still does not every perform to the same level of the Hiatt Totally Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle.

By what criteria are you judging performance.
Not to throw this discussion off course, but your etymology of "refuge" is incorrect.

Sea World’s staff is now looking hard at the system. It will save their fish and reduce costs of labor. But what the heck, what do THOSE people know about fish anyway?????

I am very interested in what Sea World decides. Please keep us abreast of their decision.

 

[Bill S]

In spite of his sense of humor - I'm still trying this. What the heck. BTW, I understand that Sea World's shark "tank" is somthing like 1000ppm nitrate.

 

[Len]

Try buying rock for a 215... OUCH!

Yes, but live rock is more then merely a biological bed for bacteria. It hosts a wide diversity of life that are critical components of a complete ecosystem. A uniform media like carbon can not support this diversity regardless of how much you use.

Do you believe "conventional" surfaces such as substrate, rock, cheap plastic or ceramic porous media, etc. do not adequetely provide the surface area necessary to cultivate sufficient bacterial populations? I assume your answer is no, but I ask because you have repeatedly praised the surface area of carbon as an advantage.

Is the advantage, then, the type of carbon Tribase provides?

Now, why tri-base versus regular? I'm told - as I noted above - that the tri-base supplies a useable carbon to the bacteria that other carbon doesn't have. The carbon is used up as part of the chemical reaction taking place within the bacteria in the conversion process of NH4 to N2. Again, what I've been told.

It appears skylab's experience contradict this assertion and debunks the notion RN Bacteria requires "special" carbon.

 

[Len]

BTW, I still think a few photos of an established tank using Hiatt's proposed methodology would greatly enhance this conversation. I also haven't seen a photo from skylab's 5 gallon in a while.

 

[Snake USMC]

Who ever started the idea of phosphates leaching from carbon, any carbon did not know what they were speaking about. I have been in the Activated Carbon Business since 1976 as primary. I hear so much about nonsense such as this, I wonder what the people have been drinking where they come up with such totally non scientific claims such as this with out supporting evidence. But like other urban tall tails, it has a life of it’s own in the aquarium industry, but not in the environmental industry.

Here are the facts about Phosphates.

Since MOST (not all carbons) are naturally occurring and came from plant or animals, they DO contain a certain amount of Phosphate. But the Phosphate is TOTALLY water soluble from the on set.

What is meant by this, if you take distilled water, and check for P in the water you should not find any. Then if you put carbon I the water and mix it for a day or so, you will find without any bacterial action or any additional food source, there will be P in the water. This is a fact.

But what also is a fact, is there is only a FINITE amount of P contained in the carbon. After this is depleted, then the carbon does not contain any more P.

Now if you have food or poop in the water and it becomes lodged in the pores, then as the food and poop break down, THAT P is released into the water.

Now carbon does not lose it activity until all it’s pores are filled not with dirt but with attractive mols. Usually we have found flushing hard will knock out most of the dirt that clogs the pores, thus prolonging the life of the carbon.

The English effect is maybe what they might have been thinking of but did not explain it correctly.

Think of a box. You can only put in 100 marbles in this box. When ever you have a marble that is tossed near this box, the box attracts it. Now you have 125 marbles. You toss the marbles near the box. The box attaches the marbles that pass over head (the box top is open) until it is filled with 100 marbles. Still, the box has not lost it’s attraction to get marbles, it only lacks space to handle any more. So you toss another marble over the box and the attraction, makes the marble enter the box, BUT at the same time, the box which cannot handle any more marbles must give up one of it’s marbles. Thus you can do this all day, but in the end, you will still have 100 marbles in the box and 25 marbles outside the box. Thus, you have not increased nor decreased the remaining 25 marbles outside the box. This is called the English effect.


Baking in the oven only shrinks the dirt and that dirt can be then knocked out most of the time. You cannot by any means “reactivate” your carbon in the oven. If so, then I could save a bundle activating carbon at lower temps.

It normally takes 1160 - 1800 + F in a steam or N2 filled furnace to activate carbon. If you do have one of those furnaces in your home then you can do it. Usually 10,000 pounds are activated at a time in batch or more so if you have a continuous flow furnace.

But the good thing is, the RN bacteria consumes P while it is consuming N.

We did a study with the TBPC. We introduced 300 mg/L of NaNO3 into a vat of water. No fish, virgin TBPC. Added the RN bacteria. 24 hours later, the value dropped to 149 mg/L if memory serves me, (sometimes I have to go searching for my brain housing group assembly when it becomes lost) The next day the value was 82 mg/L The following day the value was 82 mg/L When we checked the values we found ALL of the P had been depleted from the water. Testing with a HPGC the value was in the ppt which we found could not support life.

Since we feed our fish etc, there is a constant infusion of P into the water. We all need P because we use it (like everything else in the world) in our RNA. It is only when it becomes out of bounds by over feeding does it harm a closed ecosystem.

Len, I have already posted on this board a wholesaler and a retailer who has used our system going on seven years. IF you go back and find the post, one is in the Los Angeles Area.

Now for some real Snake Oil. I have a net, (that cost me .49 cents) that if you say the magic words and swoop it through your water it will remove all the elements from your aquarium. I am only asking one million Yuan for this wonderful invention. I shall take houses, cars, airplanes and first borns. Now if you believe this, I also have some swamp land outside the New Orleans area for underwater condos. Buy them before the next blow happens.

El Snake a Roo O

 

[Len]

But the good thing is, the RN bacteria consumes P while it is consuming N.

Can you explain what you mean by consume?

 

[Len]

Again, not to derail this discussion, but I feel compelled to mention that I found the New Orleans comment very insensitive to the very real suffering of countless people.

 

[The_Big_Fish]

Snake for a salesman/inventor I find that you discredit most of your claims with sentences like this one,

Who ever started the idea of phosphates leaching from carbon, any carbon did not know what they were speaking about"

then posting things like this in the same reply,

Now carbon does not lose it activity until all it’s pores are filled not with dirt but with attractive mols"

.
Define absorbtion.
Thats what quality carbon does. It is infact its main role in the aquarium. YEARS of scientific data has been collected by every major and off brand maker of carbon on the market to use this property as a SELLING point.
The reason why it needs replacing is not just because it has reached max saturation (Absorbtion), It because all of those tiny pores are worn away and all that is left for it to do is "leach" all the chemicals it has absorbed back in to the aquarium.
Ever notice algae growths on a bag of used carbon in a marine aquarium?
That would be a direct result of absorbed compounds built up in the carbon its self.

It atracks and holds (to a degree) just about any soluble compound introduced in to your tank. Now if it did not "absorb" anything but rather atract it in to its pores until rinsed out, why does evvery manufacturer on
the planet state to remove your carbon before applying the medication to your tank?

Refuge (English name for a Latin plant tank) sump

Lost me there to fella?
It is (Spanish, Latin) meaning to "Shelter." From the Latin word "refugium."
It is an adopted word usage for aquarists, not an actual latin name for a planted aquarium.

Sump: A low-lying place, such as a pit, that receives drainage.
A cesspool.
A hole at the lowest point of a mine shaft into which water is drained in order to be pumped out.
[Middle English sompe, marsh, from Middle Low German sump or from Middle Dutch somp. Sense 2, from German Sumpf, swamp, sump, from Middle High German, swamp.]

All of those missnomers and the incorrect information combined with the fact that your trying to sell this stuff makes me think twice about following this post, or looking in to your product. Especialy your demeener in direct response to legitemate questions.
I would love to read your sales pitch to Seaworld.

 

[Anonymous]

I am reminded of the words of Lazarus Long in the Notebook of Lazarus Long, penned by Robert A Heinlein.

What are the facts? Again and again and again --- what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars foretell", avoid opinion, Care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" --- what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always in to an unknown future; facts are your only chance. Get the facts!

Words to live by, words to live by I say....



I hate to criticize someone, but Snake is his own worst enemy as a salesman in this thread, his posts are confusing, filled with nonsense, and answering a direct question with a clear, concise answer seems to be impossible.

I too wait for pics of established tanks using this system...

 

[trido]

I hate to criticize someone, but Snake is his own worst enemy as a salesman in this thread, his posts are confusing, filled with nonsense, and answering a direct question with a clear, concise answer seems to be impossible.

I too wait for pics of established tanks using this system...

I totally agree.
I thought that was understanding things better due to bstreeps explanations to us in laymans terms. Thanks bstreep. And then snake came along. I guess we'll just have to wait and see it in some well known commercial appplications. Until I see some pics. Im done here.


BTW.. Pics are very easy to post here.

 

[Anonymous]

Who ever started the idea of phosphates leaching from carbon, any carbon did not know what they were speaking about.

......

if you put carbon I the water and mix it for a day or so, you will find without any bacterial action or any additional food source, there will be P in the water. This is a fact.

Well, if the P didn't leach from the carbon then where did it come from? I've done the GAC in a clean bucket experiment and you're absolutely right, there was P in the water. I had to assume it leached from the carbon but now you say it doesn't leach from carbon. How did it get into the bucket when all I put in the RO/DI water was carbon.

 

[Bill S]

Now, this is where I say that this discussion won't work if folks post things as fact, that aren't:

Fish - where did you get your ideas on carbon? First of all, it's "adsorb", not "absorb".

Next you say: "all of those tiny pores are worn away and all that is left for it to do is "leach" all the chemicals it has absorbed back in to the aquarium" - WHAT??? Pores are worn away? Not hardly. However, as snake indicates, carbon can be re-activated. We used to think - in the dark ages of this hobby - that boiling would work. It does, just not well at all. Nothing really ugly is removed. Read up on the subject. Carbon is activated/reactivated at something over 1000 degrees C. New "pores" are NOT created - the chemical bonds are released at high temperature.

Definition of "refugium": You can find all sorts of different defintions for this word. However, the consensus is that it's NOT a Latin work, but, like most/much of our language, it comes from a Latin root: refuge. Let's get over this - it isn't important in the overall discussion.

"P in the Carbon". Re-read Snake's post. What he says is exactly what you folks HAVE POSTED: IT COMES FROM THE CARBON - in limited amounts when first used.

************* Pics: I can't post them. Do you have to have a certain number of posts before they can be posted???

 

[Len]

I always thought activated carbon both adsorbs and absorbs.

Bill, any member can post photos. You simply have to upload a jpg, jpeg, gif, or bmp file as an attachment to your post. This is done in the full "post reply" window (the quick reply box does not have this option).