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flameangel1

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Lee,
I am continually amazed that people are willing to buy fish UNSEEN from the internet !!
At least go visit the holding tanks of those internet dealers BEFORE you buy from them.
What you can not see, does not mean it is any better than those LFS that you deplore.
If you hobbyists really cared, you would support the LFS that does care- and help the ones who do not , by asking/demanding clean animals and better conditions.
You sure could "walk the walk" by doing just that !!!!

Added note,
I have long since learned not to believe 99.99% of the marketing/pr hype in this hobby.
After all, Fluval 330's are marketed for 120 reef tanks, and we know what that means !!!
 
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Judy,

flameangel":1cnr6ee2 said:
If you hobbyists really cared...

I'm sighing and shaking my head slowly back and forth as I type this. You and several others in this thread persist in lumping us hobbyists all together. Your comment "If you hobbyists really cared..." is clearly aimed squarely at me and I'm tired of you, and the others trying to turn my every well intentioned word against me. I'm also tired of seeing JohnF's and JamesW's every word similarly questioned.

Then you folks complain vehemently whenever we hobbyists, in this thread, say many/most LFS's in our respective areas are worthless. In my market, to the best of my knowledge, they are. If there were a really good one I'd support it. Heck, I'd even buy overpriced drygoods from them to help them out. I and friends of mine have offered to help some of the LFS's to do a better job. I mean roll up our sleeves and help right then. The offer of help was refused. One person I know that raised frags pretty much quit because he was unwilling to sell them to any of the local LFS's after he watched them die in their tanks. He gives his frags away to friends now.

I will kindly not lump you in with the unethical LFS crowd, if you will return the same courtesy.

flameangel":1cnr6ee2 said:
I am continually amazed that people are willing to buy fish UNSEEN from the internet!!
What you can not see, does not mean it is any better than those LFS that you deplore.

I do not deplore anyone. I am disappointed in the persistent ignorance, uncaring, and pride of some people, however. The "some people" I refer to are both hobbyists and people in the retail end of things. I will have to MO from stores with consistently good reputations to obtain captive raised/reared livestock. The local stores have not responded to hobbyist's repeated requests for premium livestock. Oh, except for a couple of tanks full of truly anemic clownfish.

I feel that the percentage of truly ethical hobbyists is about the same as the percentage of truly ethical people involved in collection, wholesale, and retail. I'd just like to find some way that we could all hook up and show everyone how much more responsible and successful this hobby can be.

Please remember that every single person that has contributed to this thread appears to sincerely want true, pervasive reform in the industry. You folks are preaching to the choir.

-Lee
 

flameangel1

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Lee,
I apologize for including you or any single person, as to "hobbyists caring".
It is obvious that YOU do care.
Remember though, Mary is in business selling to retailers, so there has to be many of us out there, or she would not still be in business.

It is very frustrating to me, as a retailer also, but honestly, the hobbyist is the Real controller in this industry.
No one can sell or stay in business, if the hobbyist was not buying.
And yes, As John Tullock told me years ago- "we are preaching to the already reformed".
Now- how do we get the non reformed to listen ????
 

jamesw

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The best way to get the "non-reformed" to listen is to hit them in the pocketbook. This means further regulation of the marine ornamentals industry requiring organisms to have a MAC chain of custody certificate and certified cyanide free.

Right? :)

Cheers
James
 

SPC

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Posted by SciGuy:
I'm sighing and shaking my head slowly back and forth as I type this. You and several others in this thread persist in lumping us hobbyists all together. Your comment "If you hobbyists really cared..." is clearly aimed squarely at me and I'm tired of you, and the others trying to turn my every well intentioned word against me. I'm also tired of seeing JohnF's and JamesW's every word similarly questioned.

-Lee, it seems to me as if you are confusing discussion with attacking, no one here has attacked anyone personally. This Forum is here to discuss different ideas and to hopefully bring different points of view to the discussion. Now, whether your "well intentioned word" is fact is what is being questioned, not that you are sincere in your beliefs. Help me understand your point of view better, why do you find it offensive to see Lee's, JohnF and JamesW's "words questioned". And please explain to me how this is any different than the questioning all 3 of you have done of the others in this discussion.

Then you folks complain vehemently whenever we hobbyists, in this thread, say many/most LFS's in our respective areas are worthless.

-Lee, who are "you folks"? And could you point out to me where someone complained vehemently about hobbiest saying most/many LFS's in their respective areas are worthless? I don't recall reading that.

I and friends of mine have offered to help some of the LFS's to do a better job. I mean roll up our sleeves and help right then. The offer of help was refused.

-How did you offer exactly? When you say "roll up our sleeves and help right then" can you be a bit more specific, how was the offer made etc...?

I'd just like to find some way that we could all hook up and show everyone how much more responsible and successful this hobby can be.

-Everyone in this discussion would. Mary, Judy and Steve have even given the specifics of what they think needs to be done, do you have any ideas or experience in working with these reform groups?
Steve
 
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Well, I think I have to say a few points so people can comment on them and help me clarify my thinking on this issue.

First of all, here's my situation... I work for a local pet store (read: all pets except cats and dogs, and supplies for everything) that has grown 1,000% in it's 5 years of existence. They've done extremely well, and have expanded twice to triple the space of their original setup. One area seriously lacking was saltwater fish and corals. Since I started working for them, interest has increased to a point where they sought to hire me full-time (a quite a nice salary) and expand their section from 6 tanks to a whopping 65 tanks (it seems to increase in number each day!). Most of my education in saltwater fish and reef keeping comes from reefs.org, book recommended by those at reefs.org, and trial and error on my own part. I consider myself to be an above-average hobbiest, and I consider myself to be more knowledgeable than 98% of my customer base.

My points are thus :

#1 - I am not the owner of the store, and just make decisions based on my saltwater knowledge. How can I deny a customer the fish they'd like to have for their saltwater tank because I cannot procure a hand-caught or tank-raised specimen? As stated before, most customers are deaf to education as to why...they come into the shop looking for a 'product,' and go elsewhere if they cannot find it at our store. How can I justify not making a profit so I can support this 'cause?'

#2 - When this responsibility is thrust upon me, how can I not attempt to stock as much variety as possible to further expand my customer base? How can I have 10 tanks filled with clownfish when a customer wants a grouper that I can only get from a distributor with 'large availability lists' (read: someone that y'all think has cyanide fish)? How can I even be sure that any of my distributors even HAVE cyanide caught fish?

#3 - What is the argument I give to customers (and it *will* turn into an argument) who cannot get a fish from me that other stores have, simply because I can't stock a net caught or tank raised specimen? Likewise when I have to raise prices to offset the greater expense of net caught fish?

#4 -

Customer - "Why don't you have XXX fish anymore?"

Me - "I switched to a distributor that only offers net-caught fish because they're not caught with cyanide, are healthier, and will live out their lives if cared for properly."

Customer - "But I don't like any of these fish...I want fish YYY."

Me - "I can't get those on a regular basis because they aren't available as regularly guaranteed net-caught."

Customer - "Okay, thanks anyway."

2 weeks later

Customer - "Hey, I went two towns over and the fish store there had one of those fish! I got it cheap, too!"

Me - "Well, good luck."


These are the things I'm worried about happening...I rely on my salary to live my life. I love saltwater animals, and working with them to make my living is a dream come true.

Where is the middle ground here?

Thanks in advance for reading and responding. I realize this has nothing to do with the industry reform as a whole, but rather what my small place in it can do with the situation I'm in.

Peace,

Chip
 

flameangel1

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marillion,

These are the things I'm worried about happening...I rely on my salary to live my life. I love saltwater animals, and working with them to make my living is a dream come true.

Where is the middle ground here?
There is no middle ground and we all have the same problem to face.
 

MaryHM

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Marillion,

Good point of view from the retail front. Concerning this statement:

How can I even be sure that any of my distributors even HAVE cyanide caught fish?

I've said it before. If a distributor has a long list of practically every fish known to the hobby you can be 100% sure that they have cyanide caught fish. PI and Indo are the 2 biggest exporters of fish to the US. The two biggest by far- I'd say the 3rd biggest might be Fiji and Fiji would fall a very far 3rd behind. PI and Indo, especially Indo where there is basically no reform, are shipping out cyanide caught fish by the thousands every week. It's a fact. Anyone disagree with this?
 
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Marrilion-

Your plight exactly mirrors mine. (only somehow I ended up owning the store). I've always thought it would be a good idea for a few retailers with similar backgrounds to swap experiences about who they are dealing with. Sort of a way to lift up the good guys and warn about the bad ones. Feel free to PM me, maybe we can swap some stories.

Glenn
 

DBM

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Marillion, you're questions point to problems we all face, both at the retail level and the wholesale level. Do you compromise a little or alot in the name of profit? I think most successful business struggle with ethics vs profit. I think you would make more money in the short term by going the popular route. I believe though that you've got to do what you feel is right - as long as you can sleep at night. Some of us have decided to stand firm, thus making alot less money (in my case probably 50% less). My reasons are strictly for personal reasons, but if the Philippines shut down (remember a few years back?) or if our reefs get to the point where the local people can no longer depend on them for food, money etc I can say it had nothing to do with me, I did the responsible thing.

Then again, I have another line of business that I can pursue, where as Steve and Mary have alot more to lose than I. Kudos to them.
 
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DBM":2ev4pfmr said:
Marillion, you're questions point to problems we all face, both at the retail level and the wholesale level. Do you compromise a little or alot in the name of profit?

I have begun processes in-store that the owners are okay with so far. Animals like mandarin dragonets, and corals like goniopora are no longer carried in our store, and they were frequent sellers before my arrival. Butterflies, ordered before with good frequency, are also not carried anymore. I've tried to 'take shots' where I can.

DBM":2ev4pfmr said:
I think most successful business struggle with ethics vs profit. I think you would make more money in the short term by going the popular route. I believe though that you've got to do what you feel is right - as long as you can sleep at night.

I have no problems sleeping at night, but I like Mary and the others on these forums, and want to do what I can to help, in whatever capacity that may be.

DBM":2ev4pfmr said:
Some of us have decided to stand firm, thus making alot less money (in my case probably 50% less). My reasons are strictly for personal reasons, but if the Philippines shut down (remember a few years back?) or if our reefs get to the point where the local people can no longer depend on them for food, money etc I can say it had nothing to do with me, I did the responsible thing. Then again, I have another line of business that I can pursue, where as Steve and Mary have alot more to lose than I. Kudos to them.

See, this is now my 'career' and everything I've ever wanted in life is in my grasp (save for the sane, attractive woman, but I'm beginning to doubt one exists *grin*), so I can't really hedge too much on the profit side. I try, through educating my customers, to steer them in the right direction, but if they are adamant in wanting something, then I procure it for them, with no guanrantees on its survival. not much I can do about it. I have a responsibility to the owners to make them money.

Peace,

Chip
 

flameangel1

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Steve (SPC),
thanks-sad story.

point on the article though,

Walt Smith told MAC that 1 % was doable- but is working himself trying to stay under 2 % loss.
And that is only to HIS warehouse.

Wonder how often it actually stays that low.
 

MaryHM

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I spoke to Mr. Hirsch at the request of Peter Rubec of the International Marinelife Alliance. I told him the problems with MAC, problems in the industry, and what needs to be done to solve them. Interesting that he turned it into a fluff piece about Walt and MAC. Oh well, better than some of the complete misinformation about the industry that I've seen come out of the Times. I did get a giggle out of the Walt's BMW vs. the Fijians still living in bures comparison. :lol:
 
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Anonymous

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for those of you who don't want to register on their site:(i added some highlights of my own:)



By JERRY HIRSCH, Times Staff Writer


VITOGO REEF, Fiji -- Bobbing in a lonely coral reef, Manoa Kurulo spies his tiny prey, takes a snorkel breath and dives into thewater. The nimble blue-and-orange quarry darts away through the stony underwater garden.

Kurulo is a lumbering giant in comparison. Slicing through the water, he gradually herds his prize--a Fiji blue dot puffer the size of a man's thumb--into a fine mesh net strung between two stands of coral. The little fish is worth its weight in silver. He scoops it into a bucket already sparkling with an orange-and-brown goatfish and three shimmering silver-green damsels.

The puffer has survived enormous odds to reach adulthood in a sea of hungry predators, disease and storms. Now, it is on the verge of embarking on a new and unnatural migration across the globe in the cargo hold of a 747.

Kurulo's bucket is the first stop in a 5,500-mile journey that will carry the puffer from the pristine waters of Fiji to a warehouseon a stretch of 104th Street near Los Angeles International Airport known as "Fish Street," regarded as the hub of the world's aquarium fish trade.

Kurulo will get about 38 cents for his fish. By the time his little puffer reaches a tropical-fish store on Pico Boulevard, it will sell for $13.

Driven by advances in aquarium technology and the economic boom years of the 1990s, exotic fish and the coral where they live are among the hottest wild-caught pets in America and Europe. They make up a $235-million annual trade that has become both a blessing and a curse across the Pacific.

In a good week, Kurulo earns upward of $100 harvesting fish and live coral, more than twice the World Bank's per capita income estimate for Fiji. He sends much of his earnings back to the remote island village of Wayalevu, where his wife and daughter live in a village of traditional thatched Fijian bures and concrete-block homes
.

Thousands of miles away in Los Angeles, Walt Smith, Kurulo's boss and president of marine animal wholesaler Walt Smith International, drives his black BMW X5 to his new 15,000-square-foot Fish Street warehouse--both the fruits of Fiji's reef fish and coral.

Yet along with the bounty have come questions over whether the industry is contributing to the demise of the world's coral reefs. Across the Pacific, thousands of divers have culled the waters of moray eels, yellow tangs, coral banded shrimp and other exotic marine creatures in their desperation to eke out a meager living. None of the popular tropical fish are in danger of extinction, but in some areas, fish such as yellow tangs and Bangai cardinals have reached dangerously low levels, marine biologists say.

The Indo-Pacific is notorious for its dangerous and destructive methods for capturing fish. Collectors often dive into the water with plastic air tubes wrapped around their waists, tethering them to old paint compressors. Periodically, they take breaths from the tubes, typically inhaling a mixture of air and exhaust fumes.

Divers in Indonesia, the Philippines and Vietnam often squirt cyanide into the reefs to stun the fish, making their capture easier. Many of the fish die of poisoning, slowly wasting away on the trip to the United States or succumbing during their first weeks in a hobbyist's tank. Other divers destroy the reef habitat by using hammers and chisels to hack apart generations-old coral heads, breaking them into pieces small enough to fit into home aquariums.

By some industry estimates, as many as one-third of the 30 million aquarium fish harvested each year perish in the long chain that leads from the reef to the hobbyist's tank. They die by stewing in hot plastic bags and buckets of stale water as they wait for shipment. Piles of tiny fish are scooped out each day from stuffed Styrofoam shipping boxes that are short on water to trim shipping expenses

"In some shipments if they get only 50% mortality they are happy," said Craig Shuman, a scientist for Reef Check, a monitoring group based at UCLA's Institute of the Environment.

Striving for 'Green'

Given the odds, Kurulo's puffer is one of the lucky ones. He was caught by Smith's company, one of a group of leading collectors in Fiji attempting to transform the industry into a "green" and sustainable business by varying their fishing sites and improving storage and shipping practices to slash the mortality rate.

His Fiji station also is experimenting with collecting fish at the early-juvenile stage and raising them in captivity.

Kurulo, like other collectors in Fiji, has learned that a gentle capture is a crucial factor in the fish's chances for survival

When frightened, his little puffer will inflate its body to nearly twice its normal size to make itself look more formidable to predators. But Kurulo's underwater moves are so deft that the puffer and three others caught within minutes show little signs of alarm as they are transferred from the reef to the boat.

Tim McLeod, manager of Smith's Fiji operations, pilots his 26-foot boat Brittany and its cargo of live fish and coral back to the warehouse after a day of harvesting with Kurulo. On a typical day, Kurulo will capture as many as 80 of the tiny puffers.

The little puffer is tucked away with the other fish, darting back and forth in a plastic tub--an unimaginably small world compared to the endless reef they knew just minutes earlier.

Halfway through the journey, McLeod throttles back the engine. Kurulo knows the drill. He dips a bucket into the ocean and empties it into the tub, providing the animals with clean water and oxygen. It's all part of the company's efforts to keep its mortality rate to less than 2% of what it captures.

The engines rev again and the Brittany points to shore. Perfect white-sand beaches and tangled mangrove forests streak by. The sea is so glassy that Kurulo can look over the side and see fish, sea stars and vast growths of coral as the boat speeds over the shallow water.

The little puffer would have passed its entire life hunting small crustaceans and invertebrates that live within the large honeycombed boulders of Porites coral and the brown-and-blue tinted thickets of Acropora.

Kurulo knows these waters as intimately as any stretch of land--where to find the stands of Acropora, the spreading disks of table coral, sprouting like giant toadstools from the ocean floor, and the swirling bursts of angelfish, tangs, butterflies and damsels prized by hobbyists.

Diving has allowed Kurulo, 38, a standard of living far above what he earned in his previous job working on a road crew for the Fijian government. He owns two of the 77 homes in his island village--a traditional bure and a concrete-block home. There's no power on the island, but Kurulo is saving to buy a solar generator that would allow him to operate a television, a video player and a radio.

The ability of the marine aquarium industry to put cash in the hands of villagers represents one of the greatest potential benefits of a business that badly needs reform, said Bruce W. Bunting, a veterinarian who heads the World Wildlife Fund's Center for Conservation Finance.

On average, marine aquarium fish sell for more than 80 times the value of fish caught and killed for food export, Bunting said. Putting a greater percentage of that money into the hands of collectors--in the Philippines and Indonesia, divers earn maybe $50 a month--will encourage the villages of Micronesia and the Indo-Pacific to create protected areas and fishing areas and to limit the pollution that is killing reefs worldwide, he said.

"The leaders of this industry want to see it cleaned up, and they know that this is the time to do it," said Bunting, who also serves as chairman of the Marine Aquarium Council, a trade group implementing a set of reforms and a certification process for catching and transporting the animals.

The council's standards cover the entire supply chain--from reef to retailer--setting targets to reduce mortality and demanding that collectors and exporters certify that their animals were caught humanely, without poisons or other destructive techniques. The first council-certified fish are expected to appear in U.S. retail shops in the next six months.

As Kurulo ties up the Brittany at the warehouse dock, McLeod reaches for the container holding the puffer and the rest of the day's catch. McLeod slowly adds saltwater from the warehouse's filtering system to the container to acclimate the puffer to the water that will flow through its holding tank.

Fish Out of Water

In its own environment of the reef, the puffer is a hardy species, able to survive through sheer weight of numbers and the countless hiding places within the coral stands and rocky storm rubble. But once removed from the reef, it becomes a fragile slip of color, dependent on humans to re-create a constant and complex environment.

The puffer's home waters never seem to change much. That stability creates a challenge for the hobbyists who attempt to replicate a slice of the reef in their living rooms. If the puffer is to thrive in captivity, its water temperature should rarely vary by a degree or two from 78.

The salinity in the aquarium must remain steady, protected from the swings of water evaporation from such a small habitat. The same holds true for alkalinity, which on the reef never strays far from a pH of 8.2.

Even just an hour out of its native habitat, Kurulo's 38-cent puffer is feeling the stress of adapting to its new world of a small plexiglass cage. Although the elaborate saltwater storage and filtering system at the warehouse provides the puffer with water nearly identical to that of its home, the fish cowers in a corner of its small holding tank, unable to find the expected refuge of coral branches.

McLeod's workers won't feed the fish for three days. They know from experience that it is better to have a hungry fish than one that will foul its shipping water with the previous night's dinner.

The puffer will gradually acclimate in the coming days, but by then it will be time to pack the fish in a plastic bag with fresh saltwater and then into an insulated box with dozens of other fish for the 11-hour overnight flight to Los Angeles.

New Home and a Name

For this puffer, and the other fish on this shipment, it is a race against time.

McLeod's workers give the fish enough water and oxygen to last through the roughly 24-hour journey of loading docks, cargo holds and customs inspections until their arrival and acclimation into the tanks at the stateside warehouses on Fish Street. About 98% of the fish from Nadi Airport in Fiji survive the flights.

The puffer arrives in seemingly good health. He is part of a shipment that includes coral and the other puffers collected by Kurulo. In a few days Eric Hartung, the owner of L.A. Aquarium, selects the puffers out of the thousands of fish offered by the Fish Street warehouses each day
.

Alex Bouchet, a sixth-grader from Mar Vista with an interest in ocean life, walks into L.A. Aquarium that weekend and scans the rows of bubbling tanks. The 11-year-old is quickly drawn to the blue-and-orange puffer and hands over $13 for the fish.

Once again the little puffer gets packed into a plastic bag for the journey to yet another home, half a world away from his native reef. He goes into a 15-gallon aquarium on a table in Alex's bedroom.

The puffer, now named Roy, swims in the tank, is fed after Alex gets home from trombone lessons and football practices each day, and sleeps pressed up against a large rock in the aquarium.

But in less than eight weeks from the day Kurulo netted the puffer out of the reef, Alex looks into his tank and discovers that Roy is dead. It might have been the water chemistry, a disease picked up in transit or merely the stress of the long journey and the series of increasingly smaller homes.

Meanwhile, a new shipment of puffers has arrived at Fish Street.
 

SPC

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Posted by Judy:
Walt Smith told MAC that 1 % was doable- but is working himself trying to stay under 2 % loss.
And that is only to HIS warehouse.

-Yea I did notice that, I thought he had agreed that the 1% was doable also :? .

-Did anyone else get the feeling, the way Hircsh ended the article, that it was his opinion that the animals don't stand a chance anyway due to the hobbiest?
Steve
 
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SPC":2spq00zm said:
Posted by Judy:
Walt Smith told MAC that 1 % was doable- but is working himself trying to stay under 2 % loss.
And that is only to HIS warehouse.

-Yea I did notice that, I thought he had agreed that the 1% was doable also :? .

-Did anyone else get the feeling, the way Hircsh ended the article, that it was his opinion that the animals don't stand a chance anyway due to the hobbiest?
Steve

steve-

yeah, and it wasn't the only 'spin' showing, either :wink:
 

flameangel1

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Did anyone else get the feeling, the way Hircsh ended the article, that it was his opinion that the animals don't stand a chance anyway due to the hobbiest?

I got the strong impression that the author was saying how heartless the whole industry/hobby was and that it was everyones fault along the whole chain, except for Kurulo.

The comparisan of the poor native to the BMW owner was a good writers way of creating a picture, as was the last line of the article.
From a writers aspect, it was a good piece, but from the industry/hobbyist level-had too many inconsistancies.
Could be interpeted many ways.
 

dizzy

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flameangel":3rypy8g3 said:
[
I got the strong impression that the author was saying how heartless the whole industry/hobby was and that it was everyones fault along the whole chain, except for Kurulo.

The comparisan of the poor native to the BMW owner was a good writers way of creating a picture, as was the last line of the article.
From a writers aspect, it was a good piece, but from the industry/hobbyist level-had too many inconsistancies.
Could be interpeted many ways.

Walt Smith clearly deserves the BMW. Not only is he seeking MAC certification, but he is also bringing jobs to needy people. As I watched the film Walt narrated at the MACNA IX banquet, it was hard to hold back a tear :cry: while watching the natives offering thanks to the Gods for sending Walt to their village. :wink:
 

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