clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Very much looking forward to it!
Steve
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hey,
When do I get to be on POUND REEFS? I demand equal time!
Steve
When do I get to be on POUND REEFS? I demand equal time!
Steve
After just reading the AMDA election page on the website-- a few comments are in order here.
I sincerely HOPE that the membership is and will be included ABSOLUTELY, in all matters that concern them !!!!!!
As members, they have a RIGHT to know what they are involved in !!!!!
Doing things behind their backs and then forcing everyone to just accept the "whatever" is VERY wrong, imo.
Dues paid, should be used for CONSTRUCTIVE purposes also !!!!
I also, ABSOLUTELY feel that it should be members who care about and are involved with the purpose of cleaning up this industry-and not just anyone who happens to have the money and wants the "name".
Recruiting ,even those with very bad reputations, just to get every dealer et.al IN- just to say-"oh wow, the membership is big"-serves no purpose in establishing AMDA's reputation for being a worthwhile organization.
I also see a difference in what several "prospective" board members feel the direction of AMDA should be. This must be established, before some of us would even think of rejoining.
It will take some time, to re-establish AMDA's name to be something that people would respect, though. A lot has to be overcome.
I very much would like to see a GOOD- AMDA- that would accomplish something-- would support that 100%--but not as it had become in the past.
I sincerely HOPE that the membership is and will be included ABSOLUTELY, in all matters that concern them !!!!!!
As members, they have a RIGHT to know what they are involved in !!!!!
Doing things behind their backs and then forcing everyone to just accept the "whatever" is VERY wrong, imo.
Dues paid, should be used for CONSTRUCTIVE purposes also !!!!
I also, ABSOLUTELY feel that it should be members who care about and are involved with the purpose of cleaning up this industry-and not just anyone who happens to have the money and wants the "name".
Recruiting ,even those with very bad reputations, just to get every dealer et.al IN- just to say-"oh wow, the membership is big"-serves no purpose in establishing AMDA's reputation for being a worthwhile organization.
I also see a difference in what several "prospective" board members feel the direction of AMDA should be. This must be established, before some of us would even think of rejoining.
It will take some time, to re-establish AMDA's name to be something that people would respect, though. A lot has to be overcome.
I very much would like to see a GOOD- AMDA- that would accomplish something-- would support that 100%--but not as it had become in the past.
another note--
anyone who does not use e-mail , in this day and age, as the quick way to communicate, is probably still back in the undergravel filter times !!!!!
Most of us, have long since given up the Pony express and the telephone !!!!
(one was very slow- and the other is very interruptive in our busy lives now )
anyone who does not use e-mail , in this day and age, as the quick way to communicate, is probably still back in the undergravel filter times !!!!!
Most of us, have long since given up the Pony express and the telephone !!!!
(one was very slow- and the other is very interruptive in our busy lives now )
flameangel":28aef5vh said:
Flameangel,
I think most of the people running for office agree with you on this one. It would make for a better election if more people were nominated to run for some or all of the positions. AMDA has managed to get itself involved in issues that were too controversial in the past. Others like MAC & CORL should assume that role. AMDA needs to turn into an organization dedicated to helping the marine dealers. We have no such organization to my knowledge. We need things like group insurance and we need to combine our purchasing power if possible. Maybe we can negociate a better shipping rate (or guaranteed faster service) on airlines if we have more members. Maybe we can share ideas on better holding systems and husbandry procedures. I would like to see things like cryto and odinium eliminated at the wholesale level. In the past there has been way too much of this "Holier than thou" attitude among the members. You may be right Judy, AMDA may not be worth trying to save, but I for one have not yet given up all hope.
MG
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Judy, Mitch, et al.,
Of course AMDA must earn...repeat EARN respect and this comes through deeds, actions, accomplishments and sincere effort.
Although AMDA was formed as an industry reform group, it could to be sure be of service in other ways, such as those suggested by Mitch. At the same time, its very existance is called into question and for a while everyone thought the sword of Damocles was hanging over our heads vis a vis possible USCRTF sanctions, remember?
I think we should take this over to the new thread started by Mary. The MAC certification of the first batch of retailers thread has served its purpose for now.
Steve
Of course AMDA must earn...repeat EARN respect and this comes through deeds, actions, accomplishments and sincere effort.
Although AMDA was formed as an industry reform group, it could to be sure be of service in other ways, such as those suggested by Mitch. At the same time, its very existance is called into question and for a while everyone thought the sword of Damocles was hanging over our heads vis a vis possible USCRTF sanctions, remember?
I think we should take this over to the new thread started by Mary. The MAC certification of the first batch of retailers thread has served its purpose for now.
Steve
I have to agree with Judy re: AMDA and it's current status. I was relatively heavily involved myself over the past 2-3 years. The politics were time consuming and the lack of any real action made AMDA a joke. However what was also a joke was the reaction of many of the wholesalers (some whose mere membership in the AMDA is laughable) when AMDA's BoD tried to move into a more aggressive stance of enforcement and tried to team up with MAC. That I think was the more unfortunate move because IMO AMDA should have not taken the easy way out and adopted MAC's standards, but should have developed their own. MAC is far reaching and in theory a good goal but to date I haven't seen them as anything but a pipe dream. I was more than willing to be certified, however I don't need to pay $1500 for the priveledge of having a sticker in my window, we exceeded the MAC S&P long before it was written.
Tom,
Your leaving out an important part of the "rest of the story". The truth is that the AMDA BOD had an important decision to make on giving their support to MAC, and they damn well knew it. They were asked in writting to consult the membership before a certain infamous board meeting. Much of that meeting has been kept secret, but I happened to learn the BOD did vote on the issue. Apparently it was a heated debate and a fairly closely split vote.
For reasons that are still unclear to me, the AMDA BOD had the arrogance to opt not to go to the members, on one of the most important issues that had ever faced the group. I assume it was because they felt the membership at large would not agree with their decision. While I agree that a board should make certain minor decisions, this was a rather obvious abuse of power and several BOD members ended up resigning in protest.
With Steve in charge I look for things to be much different so I think there has been enough AMDA bashing for now.
Mitch Gibbs
Your leaving out an important part of the "rest of the story". The truth is that the AMDA BOD had an important decision to make on giving their support to MAC, and they damn well knew it. They were asked in writting to consult the membership before a certain infamous board meeting. Much of that meeting has been kept secret, but I happened to learn the BOD did vote on the issue. Apparently it was a heated debate and a fairly closely split vote.
For reasons that are still unclear to me, the AMDA BOD had the arrogance to opt not to go to the members, on one of the most important issues that had ever faced the group. I assume it was because they felt the membership at large would not agree with their decision. While I agree that a board should make certain minor decisions, this was a rather obvious abuse of power and several BOD members ended up resigning in protest.
With Steve in charge I look for things to be much different so I think there has been enough AMDA bashing for now.
Mitch Gibbs
dizzy":v4b9dpfw said:
You are quite right - however I can understand some of the reasoning behind that. There are certain members of AMDA who are very vocal yet have absolutely no interest in conservation or concern for the animals they sell. They would never support MAC merely because it's not in their interest to reform, but more importantly they will never reform until it hurts them in the wallet, regardless of who is behind the reformation.
Of course this goes back to the age old AMDA debate about who can become an AMDA member. Some of us operate green, others just want the sticker in the window.
That said - I remember the debates, and sure you remember the clusterf**k called the AMDA-List. Do you really believe the Membership could ever come to a real consensus without at least having someone say look here are standards and practices - lets use them as a foundation. My discussions with Randy had me of the belief that was his true intention, just to get something on paper then modify the work as necessary. When you have nothing you have to start somewhere, laziness had the adoption of the MAC standards - the BoD should drawn up their own.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Scrolling down memory lane....
I found this and a huge archive of others predicting the current future.
We were far more correct then we knew back then and even less happened in field reforms then even we belived would.
My , my...
Its the incompetence that needs the focus, not the alleged improprieties.
The non accomplishment despite the millions spent is an evident, on-going reality.
The usurpation and professionalization of environmental movements is not just happening here.
Its a general, global phenomenan....
Re-defining progress and achievement is the greatest talent evolving.
But the reefs....what of the reefs?
Steve
I found this and a huge archive of others predicting the current future.
We were far more correct then we knew back then and even less happened in field reforms then even we belived would.
My , my...
Its the incompetence that needs the focus, not the alleged improprieties.
The non accomplishment despite the millions spent is an evident, on-going reality.
The usurpation and professionalization of environmental movements is not just happening here.
Its a general, global phenomenan....
Re-defining progress and achievement is the greatest talent evolving.
But the reefs....what of the reefs?
Steve
Steve,
While I respect the right to your opinion, I must publicly dissagree with you on how you have handled Mac's journey from the beginning. Even from the first post, where you have criticized Mac's achievments when the first became certified. Progress had started, and so had your mission to critique and scrutinize the path Mac directors had embarked on.
As for myself, understanding the scope of this undertaking was not to take lightly. Reforming fish collection techniques and setting up a fisheries management program in a third world country was a task that would not likely change overnight.
In fact, I had estimated that it would take nearly 10 years to start making a difference, and even longer to re-train the majority or all of the methods being used.
I understand from reading your posts that you have always felt it could be done much faster and for much less money. This is your opionion and you have a right to it, but I don't agree with you. The task at hand is not going to happen overnight and I do believe that with the help of Mamti and Reefcheck, that there will be even more positive progress made of the next few years. Having these groups with the funds and experience will better help Mac acheive a managed fishery.
I don't want to ramble on, but just say that there are two sides to every opionion, and we are of the opposite. We will remain active and comitted to Mac and the others working to acheive ALL of our common goals.
Best regards
Eric
While I respect the right to your opinion, I must publicly dissagree with you on how you have handled Mac's journey from the beginning. Even from the first post, where you have criticized Mac's achievments when the first became certified. Progress had started, and so had your mission to critique and scrutinize the path Mac directors had embarked on.
As for myself, understanding the scope of this undertaking was not to take lightly. Reforming fish collection techniques and setting up a fisheries management program in a third world country was a task that would not likely change overnight.
In fact, I had estimated that it would take nearly 10 years to start making a difference, and even longer to re-train the majority or all of the methods being used.
I understand from reading your posts that you have always felt it could be done much faster and for much less money. This is your opionion and you have a right to it, but I don't agree with you. The task at hand is not going to happen overnight and I do believe that with the help of Mamti and Reefcheck, that there will be even more positive progress made of the next few years. Having these groups with the funds and experience will better help Mac acheive a managed fishery.
I don't want to ramble on, but just say that there are two sides to every opionion, and we are of the opposite. We will remain active and comitted to Mac and the others working to acheive ALL of our common goals.
Best regards
Eric
The task at hand is not going to happen overnight and I do believe that with the help of Mamti and Reefcheck, that there will be even more positive progress made of the next few years. Having these groups with the funds and experience will better help Mac acheive a managed fishery.
Well they have the funds but no experience. There is no-one left in MAMTI that has the experience of the aquarium trade except for Gayatri in Bali. Insiders at MAC say that she is now being singled out by Green and Abraham as their next targets for dismissal.
MAMTI has exhausted 30% of the time given to the project and way over that in budget. MAMTI funds have been used to fix the TMAT mess and Reef Check have now gotten into the aquaculture of marine ornamentals business with their friends EcoOcean.
Who paid for this. Well Holthus gave the startup money for this to his friends in Reef Check from MAMTI funds. Is this a coincedence with MAC just launching its aquaculture standard?
Well they have the funds but no experience. There is no-one left in MAMTI that has the experience of the aquarium trade except for Gayatri in Bali. Insiders at MAC say that she is now being singled out by Green and Abraham as their next targets for dismissal.
MAMTI has exhausted 30% of the time given to the project and way over that in budget. MAMTI funds have been used to fix the TMAT mess and Reef Check have now gotten into the aquaculture of marine ornamentals business with their friends EcoOcean.
Who paid for this. Well Holthus gave the startup money for this to his friends in Reef Check from MAMTI funds. Is this a coincedence with MAC just launching its aquaculture standard?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Eric,
I agree with you that training cyanide fisherman takes forever if the trainers in question are non aquarium professionals, office people and city boys. In fact, taking forever while not having to really reform or do much at all is the gift MAC has bestowed upon the trade.
Taking time and playing for time is what importers wanted all along and continue to get from this group.
You know good and well that a commercial training of divers to the standards you'd like to see would be done much, much faster and much, much better if the trainings had commercial talent.
You also know better then most how fast and efficient this can be given the speed in which Tonga, Vanuatu, Belize, Saudi became serious players when Filipinos we trained started doing the diving. All of these guys were trained in the early 90's in weeks...mere weeks.....and from then on got better.
None of these 70 some fisherman were trained by MAC and that alone is a devastating fact to behold.
10X MORE RESULTS CAN OCCUR...
10X FASTER
WITH 10X LESS BUDGET ....IN THE RIGHT HANDS....and every importer knows it.
Steve
PS....
Out of 20 some odd countries that collect fish, nets are the norm in almost all of them.
Theres no debate on it. Nets catch anything and everything you want.
Even small, cryptic, burrow dwellers and gobies and blennies by the thousands from the...
Solomons ,
Marshals,
Nicaragua,
Costa Rica,
St Croix,
Tahiti,
Ponape,
Australia,
Tonga,
Kirabati,
Cook Islands,
Vanuatu,
Mexico,
Brazil,
Sri Lanka,
Maldives,
Dominican Republic,
Kenya,
Saudi Arabia,
Guam,
Egypt,
Fiji,
Hawaii... etc.
Clearly... 'Catchability' or disposition of the fisherman to learn to use nets is not the issue at all.
Just because non commercial ngo people can't train divers to the standard in the rest of the world doesn't make a case for squandering more years to get it right.
It simply proves the case against such groups adequacy for the role.
Commercial people do daily in two dozen countries what ngos wish they could just do once ...in one.
And....they make and support the netsmanship for free.
Its just a routine adjunct to doing normal business.
This is why some of us "commercials" are admittedly jealous of an ngos ability and nerve to make so much money out of this. They make business out of what we do much, much better and for for free.
Steve
I agree with you that training cyanide fisherman takes forever if the trainers in question are non aquarium professionals, office people and city boys. In fact, taking forever while not having to really reform or do much at all is the gift MAC has bestowed upon the trade.
Taking time and playing for time is what importers wanted all along and continue to get from this group.
You know good and well that a commercial training of divers to the standards you'd like to see would be done much, much faster and much, much better if the trainings had commercial talent.
You also know better then most how fast and efficient this can be given the speed in which Tonga, Vanuatu, Belize, Saudi became serious players when Filipinos we trained started doing the diving. All of these guys were trained in the early 90's in weeks...mere weeks.....and from then on got better.
None of these 70 some fisherman were trained by MAC and that alone is a devastating fact to behold.
10X MORE RESULTS CAN OCCUR...
10X FASTER
WITH 10X LESS BUDGET ....IN THE RIGHT HANDS....and every importer knows it.
Steve
PS....
Out of 20 some odd countries that collect fish, nets are the norm in almost all of them.
Theres no debate on it. Nets catch anything and everything you want.
Even small, cryptic, burrow dwellers and gobies and blennies by the thousands from the...
Solomons ,
Marshals,
Nicaragua,
Costa Rica,
St Croix,
Tahiti,
Ponape,
Australia,
Tonga,
Kirabati,
Cook Islands,
Vanuatu,
Mexico,
Brazil,
Sri Lanka,
Maldives,
Dominican Republic,
Kenya,
Saudi Arabia,
Guam,
Egypt,
Fiji,
Hawaii... etc.
Clearly... 'Catchability' or disposition of the fisherman to learn to use nets is not the issue at all.
Just because non commercial ngo people can't train divers to the standard in the rest of the world doesn't make a case for squandering more years to get it right.
It simply proves the case against such groups adequacy for the role.
Commercial people do daily in two dozen countries what ngos wish they could just do once ...in one.
And....they make and support the netsmanship for free.
Its just a routine adjunct to doing normal business.
This is why some of us "commercials" are admittedly jealous of an ngos ability and nerve to make so much money out of this. They make business out of what we do much, much better and for for free.
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Reform mac writes;
"Well they have the funds but no experience. There is no-one left in MAMTI that has the experience of the aquarium trade except for Gayatri in Bali. Insiders at MAC say that she is now being singled out by Green and Abraham as their next targets for dismissal."
That will be the end of their chances in Bali to do anything more then whitewash it.
Gayatri has been disillusioned for years now and this may push her over to the side of the more fruitful and competent local efforts which she feels more akin to anyway.
Gayatri is a good, sincere person and hardly belongs in the meaner, nastier group that MAC is now evolving into.
Come on over Gayatri!!
Steve
"Well they have the funds but no experience. There is no-one left in MAMTI that has the experience of the aquarium trade except for Gayatri in Bali. Insiders at MAC say that she is now being singled out by Green and Abraham as their next targets for dismissal."
That will be the end of their chances in Bali to do anything more then whitewash it.
Gayatri has been disillusioned for years now and this may push her over to the side of the more fruitful and competent local efforts which she feels more akin to anyway.
Gayatri is a good, sincere person and hardly belongs in the meaner, nastier group that MAC is now evolving into.
Come on over Gayatri!!
Steve
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