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Aquarium fish gets 'warranty' article
- Thread starter clarionreef
- Start date
clarionreef
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Hi,
The actual export values of Philippinme marinelife exports is more than anyone imagines. Since our more "responsible and scientific types" go by USFWS [US Fish and wildlife] figures, they are actually taking their calculations seriously.
The truth is...known all too well by bonafide importers, who are not talking...most export declarations are false by a factor of 3 times. An invoice of say $1,800. may be declared at 600 bucks and thats what the official figure will show. Run that for 35 years or so and what you get is that no one knows the truth anymore. They only know what falsified figures reveal. And the joke is how seriously they take them. There is a lot more money going into this trade in the Philippines than anyone knows.
Steve
The actual export values of Philippinme marinelife exports is more than anyone imagines. Since our more "responsible and scientific types" go by USFWS [US Fish and wildlife] figures, they are actually taking their calculations seriously.
The truth is...known all too well by bonafide importers, who are not talking...most export declarations are false by a factor of 3 times. An invoice of say $1,800. may be declared at 600 bucks and thats what the official figure will show. Run that for 35 years or so and what you get is that no one knows the truth anymore. They only know what falsified figures reveal. And the joke is how seriously they take them. There is a lot more money going into this trade in the Philippines than anyone knows.
Steve
............I see?......................why do I hear choirs music? How bout some math ............five fish per box? {personifiers etc.}$30 per fish? $150 dollars per box . divided by 10,000,000 = 70,000 boxes per year?............of Personifers,tusks and Assessors? ............. no way!
_________________
Woodsball
_________________
Woodsball
Honestly, I'd be surprised if more than 70 boxes of aussie fish are coming into the US each week. They really are a "niche" type fish. Limited market. Retailers don't need 10 Scribbleds, but they need 10 Coral Beauties. They don't need 10 Harlequin Tusk, but they need 10 Six Lines.
Im glad your still listening.....then where did the 10,000,000 dollar export number come about? And further more why am I always the one to have point out these ......lets say......... clerical errors? no one else noticed that this figure is most likely ten times too high? Im am sure its most likely an honest mistake....but the accuacy of this figure does change the discussion.......
_________________
Mercedes W123
_________________
Mercedes W123
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Mitch,
No, that was the guy who did the books for ENRON.
Steve
No, that was the guy who did the books for ENRON.
Steve
Kalk,
Let see more Maths.
US$10.000.000 /180 collectors =US$55.555collector/year
US$55.555/12 months = 4.629collector/month
US$4.629/ average 20 days of fishing month = US$231,45 day
US$ 231,45 day / average value fish US$ 25 = 9,2 fish per day
I find it is reasonable.
This information was provided by Lyle Squire. Keynote address: A Quality Marine Aquarium Industry from Reef to Retailer. This happened in Manila December 10 1998 Workshop on Certification of Sustainable practices in the Marine Aquarium Industry organized by MAC.
The trade in Australia is environmentally sustainable, socially benefitial and economically viable. Laws and enforcement make the difference.
OVI's talk during that workshop was about water quality handling and holding problems at community level. I also spoke about the importance of dealing with fisherfolks'economic and social problems.
I agree with Steve about the value of shipments- false declarations by exporters and importers.
Jaime Baquero
OVI[/b]
Let see more Maths.
US$10.000.000 /180 collectors =US$55.555collector/year
US$55.555/12 months = 4.629collector/month
US$4.629/ average 20 days of fishing month = US$231,45 day
US$ 231,45 day / average value fish US$ 25 = 9,2 fish per day
I find it is reasonable.
This information was provided by Lyle Squire. Keynote address: A Quality Marine Aquarium Industry from Reef to Retailer. This happened in Manila December 10 1998 Workshop on Certification of Sustainable practices in the Marine Aquarium Industry organized by MAC.
The trade in Australia is environmentally sustainable, socially benefitial and economically viable. Laws and enforcement make the difference.
OVI's talk during that workshop was about water quality handling and holding problems at community level. I also spoke about the importance of dealing with fisherfolks'economic and social problems.
I agree with Steve about the value of shipments- false declarations by exporters and importers.
Jaime Baquero
OVI[/b]
Thats all fine but, there is no way $10,000,000 of Aussie fish are being exported...............with less then 200 boxes landing in USA weekly{more like 100}....and $ 200 bucks a box.......thats 40,000 per week times 50 weeks is only two million............and thats pushing it.........A lot of the Europe countries dont even alow Angle fish ..........so there is no way Europe is importing * million................Another way of doing the math is to list the species exported and estimate how many fish that would translate into...............Its just not even close.........That would mean about 20,000 fish per week.......and there is not even 1000 fish landing in Lax ?
_________________
Oliver Lang
_________________
Oliver Lang
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Guys,
This thread must stop.
The notion of 10 million in Aussie fish per year has the importers laughing and shaking their heads at how incredibly amatuerish our logic is.
Only the Iraqi Minister of Information could come up w/ such a figure.
Steve
PS. Kalk...you're closer...but the 2 million figure is still way too high.
This thread must stop.
The notion of 10 million in Aussie fish per year has the importers laughing and shaking their heads at how incredibly amatuerish our logic is.
Only the Iraqi Minister of Information could come up w/ such a figure.
Steve
PS. Kalk...you're closer...but the 2 million figure is still way too high.
Kalkbreath":20olzivu said:...A lot of the Europe countries dont even alow Angle fish ..........so there is no way Europe is importing *
kalk,
What's an angle fish? If you mean angel fish I think you must be thinking of Germany. If you are thinking of Germany you are several years behind. Germany led us into the reefkeeping craze when angels and butterflys were banned there some years, (per Dieter Brockman), I believe it was the early 80s. A few years ago the ban was removed and it my understanding that the demand for angels and butterflies, has never recovered to pre-reefkeeping days. Reef tanks are simply too popular now. I don't believe the other countries joined the ban. I have heard stories of hobbyists going to Holland and buying their angels and then smuggling them back into Germany in the ban days, but it was not a huge problem for the German government to deal with. Overall the hobby is not nearly as strong in Europe as it is in the USA, but it certainly does have it devoted followers over there.
I agree with Mary that the Australian fish are not as popular as fish from other countries. They also don't seem to always be available on price lists I receive. If collectors could make $55K US I would think it would quite the coveted job.
Hi all,
Instead of stopping the thread we should make an effort to find out more about the trade in Australia. Seems that they are doing things the way it should be. They have an industry that is environmentally sustainable, economically viable and socially benefitial. They do appreciate and give the real value to their natural resources.
jaime
Instead of stopping the thread we should make an effort to find out more about the trade in Australia. Seems that they are doing things the way it should be. They have an industry that is environmentally sustainable, economically viable and socially benefitial. They do appreciate and give the real value to their natural resources.
jaime
clarionreef
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- Location
- San Francisco
Jaime,
My apologies to the Minister of Information.
But the facts are these.
Aussie shipments hardly count as an example that the Philippines could follow.
Australia has many overlapping species that no one will ever import seriously as the good hobby will not pay double and triple for coral beauties, bicolor angels, auriga butterflies etc. etc. Aussies will never pack nearly as tightly as they do in the Philippines either...never!
Aussies endemics are of course far and away, most of the fish they ship and they do not approach export figures erroneously put out.
The Philippines will never pack as loosely as they do in Australia and never could. The Philippines has endemics but has flooded the market w/ them to the extent that they are competed down to low values.
The market determines value...not socialist intervention and price fixing. The market wants its cyanide fish, I mean cheap fish and backs that up every single day with action.
What Australia does offer is the example of a Western culture employing manual methods of collecting to catch hundreds of fish daily per diver. Something Filipinos can be trained to do on a large scale if they ever get commercial level training expertise.
Its so ironic that expensive, labor- saving Australia used manual net collection methodology while labor- rich Philippines used "labor-saving" chemical tehnology to collect fish.
For decades Aussies have shown the methodology that is applicable, transferable and duplicable in the Philippines. [ This is old news. ] Wether it will or not beyond the tokenism of the past is a purely political and financial affair.
Sincerely, Steve
My apologies to the Minister of Information.
But the facts are these.
Aussie shipments hardly count as an example that the Philippines could follow.
Australia has many overlapping species that no one will ever import seriously as the good hobby will not pay double and triple for coral beauties, bicolor angels, auriga butterflies etc. etc. Aussies will never pack nearly as tightly as they do in the Philippines either...never!
Aussies endemics are of course far and away, most of the fish they ship and they do not approach export figures erroneously put out.
The Philippines will never pack as loosely as they do in Australia and never could. The Philippines has endemics but has flooded the market w/ them to the extent that they are competed down to low values.
The market determines value...not socialist intervention and price fixing. The market wants its cyanide fish, I mean cheap fish and backs that up every single day with action.
What Australia does offer is the example of a Western culture employing manual methods of collecting to catch hundreds of fish daily per diver. Something Filipinos can be trained to do on a large scale if they ever get commercial level training expertise.
Its so ironic that expensive, labor- saving Australia used manual net collection methodology while labor- rich Philippines used "labor-saving" chemical tehnology to collect fish.
For decades Aussies have shown the methodology that is applicable, transferable and duplicable in the Philippines. [ This is old news. ] Wether it will or not beyond the tokenism of the past is a purely political and financial affair.
Sincerely, Steve
By supporting (by dealing with) the industry in the Philippines under the actual cheap fish price set up, hobbyists, retailers, importers and transhippers are contributing to perpetuate the wrong doing and unsustainability of the trade in that country.
Things are going to change only when all together recognise and appreciate the real economic value of coral reefs and their inhabitants. It won't happen!
Someone came with the figure of increasing fish prices 10%. Collectors are going to get 10% more of close to nothing. The problem is bigger and deeper than that. What kind of economic analysis or "study" was conducted to get to that number?. How many filipino collectors were interviewed to have a good idea about their economic needs? Seems that some exporters in the Philippines have agreed to pay 10% extra to collectors. This won't make a difference.
Unless Something revolutionary is done to change the prevailing industry set up in the PI and IN, the economic disparities would widen up all the more leaving the collectors vulnerable, poor and at the mercy of exporters. On the other hand the natural resources would lie in deplorable state as collection efforts mount and exceed the maximum capacities due to strinent economic requirements and demand to get more profit from the trade.
The problem I see is that many are pretending to have all the answers to the problem... but they don't .
Things are going to change only when all together recognise and appreciate the real economic value of coral reefs and their inhabitants. It won't happen!
Someone came with the figure of increasing fish prices 10%. Collectors are going to get 10% more of close to nothing. The problem is bigger and deeper than that. What kind of economic analysis or "study" was conducted to get to that number?. How many filipino collectors were interviewed to have a good idea about their economic needs? Seems that some exporters in the Philippines have agreed to pay 10% extra to collectors. This won't make a difference.
Unless Something revolutionary is done to change the prevailing industry set up in the PI and IN, the economic disparities would widen up all the more leaving the collectors vulnerable, poor and at the mercy of exporters. On the other hand the natural resources would lie in deplorable state as collection efforts mount and exceed the maximum capacities due to strinent economic requirements and demand to get more profit from the trade.
The problem I see is that many are pretending to have all the answers to the problem... but they don't .
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
TRAGICALLY ENOUGH...
It seems that fisherman are poor by design, in most fisheries all over the world...as are poor people who work in sweatshops, factories stitching up Nike shoes etc. etc.
But is trying to linking the exploitation of poor village people to the "goodwill" of aquarium people a good strategy? Social development per se has never been a strong point in the this trade...and will not be as the trade dealers put most effort into cheapening the fish futher and not empowering villagers voluntarily. Since when did any business give up a dime if it didn't get it back as a tax write off?
Helping fisher people get a better deal runs counter to the prime directive in most every exporter...w/ few exceptions.
As your best ally in this Jaime, I'll have you know that I pay more and get less variety than anyone. The cyanide trade enjoys the economy of scale and thru that alone, works the prices down be they netcaught fish or not.
Netcaught fish are worth more in everyones mind who doesn't count and has no power . Those with the economic power do not waste sales time on reefs.org.
They're in business for themselves...not to try and get to heaven. Exporters and importers w/ a half dozen exceptions want it cheaper...not better.
I believe that helping the fisherman first get a sustainable work methodology is a huge economic benefit to them and can allow their children to live near the sea as well. If they can get a better deal, more powere to them. If they can't get a better deal are you saying that they might as well stick with cyanide fishing and por handling practices?
First things first here. Everyone needs a better deal today...and if we don't get it...what? Fisherman need to work safe for now and in non-destructive ways so that they may live to engineer a better life and a better deal as ity may come.
I buy from the two most expensive exporters in Manila who pay more for their fish than anyone...and find it rather impossible to pass the cost on to anyone IF I want to sell anything...least of all to Canada.
Social justice and aquarium fish...no subject bores [ most] wholesalers and retailers more than those two topics linked together.
Pardon me for noticing that and pointing it out. We must do the right thing and extend justice to the fisherman for our own reasons...wether or not the buying public supports it. I wish they did. I really do.
If you find others who put their money where their mouth is...a union of concerned importers could perhaps be formed. Count me in.
Steve
It seems that fisherman are poor by design, in most fisheries all over the world...as are poor people who work in sweatshops, factories stitching up Nike shoes etc. etc.
But is trying to linking the exploitation of poor village people to the "goodwill" of aquarium people a good strategy? Social development per se has never been a strong point in the this trade...and will not be as the trade dealers put most effort into cheapening the fish futher and not empowering villagers voluntarily. Since when did any business give up a dime if it didn't get it back as a tax write off?
Helping fisher people get a better deal runs counter to the prime directive in most every exporter...w/ few exceptions.
As your best ally in this Jaime, I'll have you know that I pay more and get less variety than anyone. The cyanide trade enjoys the economy of scale and thru that alone, works the prices down be they netcaught fish or not.
Netcaught fish are worth more in everyones mind who doesn't count and has no power . Those with the economic power do not waste sales time on reefs.org.
They're in business for themselves...not to try and get to heaven. Exporters and importers w/ a half dozen exceptions want it cheaper...not better.
I believe that helping the fisherman first get a sustainable work methodology is a huge economic benefit to them and can allow their children to live near the sea as well. If they can get a better deal, more powere to them. If they can't get a better deal are you saying that they might as well stick with cyanide fishing and por handling practices?
First things first here. Everyone needs a better deal today...and if we don't get it...what? Fisherman need to work safe for now and in non-destructive ways so that they may live to engineer a better life and a better deal as ity may come.
I buy from the two most expensive exporters in Manila who pay more for their fish than anyone...and find it rather impossible to pass the cost on to anyone IF I want to sell anything...least of all to Canada.
Social justice and aquarium fish...no subject bores [ most] wholesalers and retailers more than those two topics linked together.
Pardon me for noticing that and pointing it out. We must do the right thing and extend justice to the fisherman for our own reasons...wether or not the buying public supports it. I wish they did. I really do.
If you find others who put their money where their mouth is...a union of concerned importers could perhaps be formed. Count me in.
Steve
Jaime,
I find myself in total agreement with you about the 10% pricing issue. It seems that the three exporters who are MAC Certified (Aquarium Habitat, HD Marineworld, and Aquascapes Philippines) have agreed to pay collectors 10% more for net-caught fish from MAC Certified collection sites (Batasan Island and Clarin in the municipality of Tubigon on the Island of Bohol). I believe that they also agreed to pay 50% of the transportation charges for shipping the fish to Manila.
I have been trying to obtain the pricing paid to collectors recommended by the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA). I had the pricing from 1999 but Lolita Ty claims that the pricing paid to all collectors by PFTEA members has increased. However, she refused to provide the price list. Hence, I don't know exactly what the baseline is (exisiting PFTEA pricing) against which the price to MAC Certified collectors is now 10% more. In any event, Lino Alvarez (MAC-Philippines Coordinator) told me it only applies to 7 species coming from the MAC Certified collection sites (Batasan and Clarin).
I agree with you that the pricing paid to collectors in general is very low (e.g., a few pesos for a damelfish). So, the 10% increase probably does not pay for the extra time and effort the collectors must expend to collect with nets, and fill out all the paper work demanded by the MAC. Without actual pricing data, it is difficult to judge whether the pricing is fair or adequate. The fact that other collectors, trained to use nets by IMA or Haribon/OVI, and who participated in the creation of CAMPs with the MAC, now refuse to be part of the MAC certification program indicates to me that the MAC pricing still is not deemed sufficient by the collectors.
Roger Hernandez (Head of the Net-Collectors Association in Palauig NW Luzon) submitted a letter in December 2002 to the MAC complaining that one MAC-Certified exporter associated with the PFTEA had refused to pay more for net-caught fish. He also complained about being cheated by screeners in that exporter's facility. Fish collected to order were refused on delivery to several MAC Certified exporters and many of the fishes were rejected by the screeners who wanted bribes (kickbacks) from the collectors. Peter Scott of the MAC met last week with Roger Hernandez and the head of the collectors association from Bagac, Bataan. Scott told me on the telephone that the meeting went very well in resolving the complaints of the net-collectors. Ferdinand Cruz has informed me that it did not. So, I don't believe the issues were resolved to the satisfaction of the non-certified collectors who participated in the MAC Feasability Study in 2001 and the MAC CAMP program in 2002.
The collectors have formed a Net-Collectors Association. I am told that there are several non-PFTEA export companies now paying higher prices (better than that offered by MAC Certified exporters) to the collectors for marine aquarium fishes from Palauig, Busuanga, Coron, Bagac, and other sites in Mindanao, Leyte, and Bicol. These companies are starting to export 100% net-caught fish at competetive export prices. Further information on these matters will be posted soon on Mary Middlebrook's web site.
Sincerely,
Peter Rubec
I find myself in total agreement with you about the 10% pricing issue. It seems that the three exporters who are MAC Certified (Aquarium Habitat, HD Marineworld, and Aquascapes Philippines) have agreed to pay collectors 10% more for net-caught fish from MAC Certified collection sites (Batasan Island and Clarin in the municipality of Tubigon on the Island of Bohol). I believe that they also agreed to pay 50% of the transportation charges for shipping the fish to Manila.
I have been trying to obtain the pricing paid to collectors recommended by the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA). I had the pricing from 1999 but Lolita Ty claims that the pricing paid to all collectors by PFTEA members has increased. However, she refused to provide the price list. Hence, I don't know exactly what the baseline is (exisiting PFTEA pricing) against which the price to MAC Certified collectors is now 10% more. In any event, Lino Alvarez (MAC-Philippines Coordinator) told me it only applies to 7 species coming from the MAC Certified collection sites (Batasan and Clarin).
I agree with you that the pricing paid to collectors in general is very low (e.g., a few pesos for a damelfish). So, the 10% increase probably does not pay for the extra time and effort the collectors must expend to collect with nets, and fill out all the paper work demanded by the MAC. Without actual pricing data, it is difficult to judge whether the pricing is fair or adequate. The fact that other collectors, trained to use nets by IMA or Haribon/OVI, and who participated in the creation of CAMPs with the MAC, now refuse to be part of the MAC certification program indicates to me that the MAC pricing still is not deemed sufficient by the collectors.
Roger Hernandez (Head of the Net-Collectors Association in Palauig NW Luzon) submitted a letter in December 2002 to the MAC complaining that one MAC-Certified exporter associated with the PFTEA had refused to pay more for net-caught fish. He also complained about being cheated by screeners in that exporter's facility. Fish collected to order were refused on delivery to several MAC Certified exporters and many of the fishes were rejected by the screeners who wanted bribes (kickbacks) from the collectors. Peter Scott of the MAC met last week with Roger Hernandez and the head of the collectors association from Bagac, Bataan. Scott told me on the telephone that the meeting went very well in resolving the complaints of the net-collectors. Ferdinand Cruz has informed me that it did not. So, I don't believe the issues were resolved to the satisfaction of the non-certified collectors who participated in the MAC Feasability Study in 2001 and the MAC CAMP program in 2002.
The collectors have formed a Net-Collectors Association. I am told that there are several non-PFTEA export companies now paying higher prices (better than that offered by MAC Certified exporters) to the collectors for marine aquarium fishes from Palauig, Busuanga, Coron, Bagac, and other sites in Mindanao, Leyte, and Bicol. These companies are starting to export 100% net-caught fish at competetive export prices. Further information on these matters will be posted soon on Mary Middlebrook's web site.
Sincerely,
Peter Rubec
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