Aquarium fish gets 'warranty' article
- Thread starter clarionreef
- Start date
No it should not be personal toward John, I never advocate shooting the messenger -- however, if someone is repeating information, that either means that A) They should have verified its truth or B) They believe it.
Since John (in this case) defends MAC so valiantly, we must assume that he has either verified the facts as he's presenting them or he has blind faith in those who are providing those facts.
It's not personal, John, but which is it? Your own independent verification, or blind faith?
Jenn
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
People,
Yes some people get more upset over this than others. I wonder why that is?
1. Some of us take this reform dialogue as entertainment and something to do. These are the ones barely skirting the edge of visability on the issue, but in an email Democracy, they get to chime in.
2. Some are "part time" relevant to it ...and if not enough legal, sustainable, netcaught fish are available, no problem. They'll just buy from the conventional system and lose no sleep over it. Bills got to be paid and waiting for real reform seems to take too long.
3. And some have their lives invested in it. For a few of us, the issue is not a game. If its not netcaught we do not have the luxury to simply 'dip' into the conventional system and import whatever turns and burns a buck today. . If our creed is netcaught or not...what would detractors have us do for supply in the meantime? Mix in cyanide fish?? But what if our sense of ethics is higher then that? Do without? Quit?
What if selling out is not an option? Afterall, if people want cheap cyanide fish, they can get all they want from L.A. any day of the week!
If the 600 lb. gorilla commanding center stage in this situation is putting more effort into paper production than field production, then we can see that they are not really the allies that I wish they would be.
It is a fact that the conventional, drug based trade in marine tropicals is more content with them then the "natural allies" who strive for only netcaught fish.
Upset? You bet! If netcaught fish are your vocation 24-7, it is illogical to watch the chances for reform get squandered year after year and not be upset.
John is not to blame for what has happened in the past...
He is in fact helping to bridge an impasse that could finally produce
results while the reformers amongst us still care enough to stay involved in "the current process."
If this one fails...there will be others.
Sincerely, Steve
Yes some people get more upset over this than others. I wonder why that is?
1. Some of us take this reform dialogue as entertainment and something to do. These are the ones barely skirting the edge of visability on the issue, but in an email Democracy, they get to chime in.
2. Some are "part time" relevant to it ...and if not enough legal, sustainable, netcaught fish are available, no problem. They'll just buy from the conventional system and lose no sleep over it. Bills got to be paid and waiting for real reform seems to take too long.
3. And some have their lives invested in it. For a few of us, the issue is not a game. If its not netcaught we do not have the luxury to simply 'dip' into the conventional system and import whatever turns and burns a buck today. . If our creed is netcaught or not...what would detractors have us do for supply in the meantime? Mix in cyanide fish?? But what if our sense of ethics is higher then that? Do without? Quit?
What if selling out is not an option? Afterall, if people want cheap cyanide fish, they can get all they want from L.A. any day of the week!
If the 600 lb. gorilla commanding center stage in this situation is putting more effort into paper production than field production, then we can see that they are not really the allies that I wish they would be.
It is a fact that the conventional, drug based trade in marine tropicals is more content with them then the "natural allies" who strive for only netcaught fish.
Upset? You bet! If netcaught fish are your vocation 24-7, it is illogical to watch the chances for reform get squandered year after year and not be upset.
John is not to blame for what has happened in the past...
He is in fact helping to bridge an impasse that could finally produce
results while the reformers amongst us still care enough to stay involved in "the current process."
If this one fails...there will be others.
Sincerely, Steve
So Steve,
What do you want us to do? Shave our heads, give away all our worldly possessions, don flowing orange colored robs, promise never to laugh or make light again, and then go stand on the corner and sell incense and flowers while reading from a book of quotations. :roll:
What do you want us to do? Shave our heads, give away all our worldly possessions, don flowing orange colored robs, promise never to laugh or make light again, and then go stand on the corner and sell incense and flowers while reading from a book of quotations. :roll:
Steve,
I agree 110% with what you just said. It's very frustrating to me to see "part time reformers" that only play the reform game when it's convienient or don't play it at all and just say they do. Drives me absolutely insane.
Mitch,
I think what he wants the collective "you" to do is PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. With EVERY purchase. Not just when it's convienient but everytime "you" buy livestock. This is what I know Steve and I do. Believe me, it's dang hard to pass up baby clown triggers and cheap blue tangs. But I do it every week of my life. If Marivi doesn't have them (and if she does she rarely has more than enough to supply 3 of my customers), then I don't have them. My customers then go elsewhere to buy them. Frustrating, but I'm not going to sell my soul to make sure all of my customers have every fish they ever thought they wanted. If someone is supporting the cyanide trade even a little bit, they are completely a part of the problem and absolutely no part of the solution. You can't half ass industry reform. It's all or nothing people...and THAT is why I am so adamant that MAC get it right.
I agree 110% with what you just said. It's very frustrating to me to see "part time reformers" that only play the reform game when it's convienient or don't play it at all and just say they do. Drives me absolutely insane.
Mitch,
I think what he wants the collective "you" to do is PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. With EVERY purchase. Not just when it's convienient but everytime "you" buy livestock. This is what I know Steve and I do. Believe me, it's dang hard to pass up baby clown triggers and cheap blue tangs. But I do it every week of my life. If Marivi doesn't have them (and if she does she rarely has more than enough to supply 3 of my customers), then I don't have them. My customers then go elsewhere to buy them. Frustrating, but I'm not going to sell my soul to make sure all of my customers have every fish they ever thought they wanted. If someone is supporting the cyanide trade even a little bit, they are completely a part of the problem and absolutely no part of the solution. You can't half ass industry reform. It's all or nothing people...and THAT is why I am so adamant that MAC get it right.
You all hang in there.
Soon the name of the game will be net caught only and you are on the forefront.
You, your products and your suppliers will be the demand.
Soon most fish will be cyanide tested and those who continue in the trade outed.
Soon, the pretenders, those who say they are cyanide free but are not will be outed.
Soon, the CEO's will have to explain why they are involved in the cyanide trade.
8)
Soon the name of the game will be net caught only and you are on the forefront.
You, your products and your suppliers will be the demand.
Soon most fish will be cyanide tested and those who continue in the trade outed.
Soon, the pretenders, those who say they are cyanide free but are not will be outed.
Soon, the CEO's will have to explain why they are involved in the cyanide trade.
8)
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hey Mitch,
Whos not funny?
It was I who wove the Iraqi Information Minister into our dialogue. And speaking of this great communicator, I hear that after he surrenders, he's going to apply for a job with MAC.
'Can't you just hear him..."We have certified now 6,450 retailers, 53 wholesalers, 21 exporters and 7 divers"!
Steve
Whos not funny?
It was I who wove the Iraqi Information Minister into our dialogue. And speaking of this great communicator, I hear that after he surrenders, he's going to apply for a job with MAC.
'Can't you just hear him..."We have certified now 6,450 retailers, 53 wholesalers, 21 exporters and 7 divers"!
Steve
JennM":1w8u1f0n said:
It's neither, Jenn.
You forgot a third possibility....cash. I don't know anything really. I just do it for the money.
Heck, if you paid me enough Jenn, I'd run around telling people that the net-caught fish that you sell in your store come from "sustainable" reef areas!
John Brandt
MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago
cortez marine":8crue6md said:
Steve, you've got it all wrong.
He's already put in his resume to a non-MAC Certified Los Angeles marine wholesaler.
"Listen to me you slimy scum dogs! We sell net-caught fish from sustainable areas with dandy management plans! Take your silly infidel certificate and run back home you belly-dragging cowardly lizard faces!"
John_Brandt":1tv7645h said:
John I'm not sure if you're making light out of something I don't consider light, or just plain mocking me. I find neither one amusing, to be honest.
I do sell ONLY net caught, or farm raised, from suppliers a total of 5 suppliers that I trust implicitly, and that I've worked to build a relationship with. Two of those suppliers haven't had an order from me in ages, because I only have so many dollars to go around each week, and I go with whomever has the most suitable choices for that week. My little system isn't perfect, but for me, it works.
I was buying "certain" things from "other" wholesalers, in an attempt to avoid being bamboozled, I kept my choices narrow, but then I realized that supporting them AT ALL supports the cyanide trade. Now the people I deal with do not carry any cyanide fish, so I can buy and sell in confidence. Is the system perfect? No of course it isn't, but to not fix what I can, would be hypocricy if I didn't do all that I could. The only "exception" I make now is at the local level, one of my region-specific suppliers sells to the local wholesaler, and if I only need a handful of the fish that they catch, I buy them locally, even though I wouldn't touch most of what they carry. When cash flow permits, I'll change that too, but it's conscious decisions such as this on my part that make a difference. If people ask, I tell them why I don't have X or Y, but that I'll watch for it because sooner or later it will become available from a trusted wholesaler.
Every dollar IS spent carefully - every importer/wholesaler, retailer and hobbyist at this end of the chain can make the same choice - if they WANT to. This is the way to force reform.
Jenn
cortez marine":219knr7g said:
Steve,
First and most importantly, Lino is doing better and is taking it easy for a while. MAC Staff is in close contact with him.
Secondly, I cannot speak for these lesser mortals that you mention :wink: I serve voluntarily, without compensation, on the board of an organization that facilitates the Certification of 100% net-caught fishing villages. What are these other people doing right now for the reform movement?
Besides sitting in front of his computer and typing out nearly-unitelligible semi-poetic rants about the rest of the world...what exactly is the board's "net training token" doing right now?
I can humpty dump with the best of them!
All in good fun,
John Brandt
MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Well first John,
I'm going to the IMAC in Chicago...not on MACs dime...to see you guys...to search for common ground as president of AMDA.
Second, I'm going with the new CORL net training proposal to "save the industry..."
Third, in between importations, sales and shipouts...I'm trying to get my paper ready for# reefs in a few weeks.
Fourth, advising and consulting daily with netcaught movers in the Philippines, especially those involved in training.
Fifth, I buy and provide only netcaught fish,withholding support from exporters who mix in cyanide fish to boost sales.
Fifth, instead of drinking coffee to wake up, putting in a bit w/ reef.org every day.
I was tired of contributing too much by 1986...and then again in 1992...this is done on auto pilot...and pure conviction and need to get the trainings on track to generate fish supply for the people who insist on netcaught fish. If we can get that done, verifications can go forth and MAC can have something to certify... Though not a priority with me, that would be an incidental benefit I guess.
You put human face on the MAC John and give people someone to talk to from the aquarium trade. Just look at the built up energy on this thing now that dialogue is possible. With you on this side and Lino on the Manila side, perhaps there is a chance .
The way it was going, there was not. Really, they ought to delete a less productive employee and put you on salary.
Sincerely, Steve
"Independant" AMDA president
I'm going to the IMAC in Chicago...not on MACs dime...to see you guys...to search for common ground as president of AMDA.
Second, I'm going with the new CORL net training proposal to "save the industry..."
Third, in between importations, sales and shipouts...I'm trying to get my paper ready for# reefs in a few weeks.
Fourth, advising and consulting daily with netcaught movers in the Philippines, especially those involved in training.
Fifth, I buy and provide only netcaught fish,withholding support from exporters who mix in cyanide fish to boost sales.
Fifth, instead of drinking coffee to wake up, putting in a bit w/ reef.org every day.
I was tired of contributing too much by 1986...and then again in 1992...this is done on auto pilot...and pure conviction and need to get the trainings on track to generate fish supply for the people who insist on netcaught fish. If we can get that done, verifications can go forth and MAC can have something to certify... Though not a priority with me, that would be an incidental benefit I guess.
You put human face on the MAC John and give people someone to talk to from the aquarium trade. Just look at the built up energy on this thing now that dialogue is possible. With you on this side and Lino on the Manila side, perhaps there is a chance .
The way it was going, there was not. Really, they ought to delete a less productive employee and put you on salary.
Sincerely, Steve
"Independant" AMDA president
dizzy":2dhjze4q said:
Mitch, should I go for it now?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9731-2003May19.html
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Mike,
Much to my chagrin, after Chicago I find the the MAC and CORL chiefs are not talking. That tends to make me start talking... too much. I want them to work it our so we can get the show on the road.
I want to train trainers, train divers and focus on teaching techniques, fish handling and skills training and field policy.
Mike King is the head of CORL, not me. Paul Holthus is the head of MAC. HOPEFULLY SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN SOON.
Sincerely, Steve
Much to my chagrin, after Chicago I find the the MAC and CORL chiefs are not talking. That tends to make me start talking... too much. I want them to work it our so we can get the show on the road.
I want to train trainers, train divers and focus on teaching techniques, fish handling and skills training and field policy.
Mike King is the head of CORL, not me. Paul Holthus is the head of MAC. HOPEFULLY SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN SOON.
Sincerely, Steve
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