• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

Jaime Baquero

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Peter,

Could you give me examples of the "higher"prices paid by the non-PFTEA exporters to collectors?

What does mean non-PFTEA exporters are exporting fish to competitive export prices? Are they charging more for the fish they get from collectors?
How much more are these non-PFTEA charge for their fish to importers in the US?

Jaime
 

kylen

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Steve,

" and find it rather impossible to pass the cost on to anyone IF I want to sell anything...least of all to Canada."

??? This is a whole other ball of wax.
 

PeterIMA

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Jaime, I am trying to obtain the pricing paid to collectors: a) recommended by the PFTEA, b) paid by MAC-Cerfied exporters who are members of the PFTEA, and c) by the non-PFTEA exporters. I expect to receive this information soon for selected species. I will email you this information when I receive it. You have to accept (or reject) what I stated until I receive more data.

I do have an export price list that I can provide for one of the companies that is exporting net-caught fish (outside of the MAC program). I will send this to you and others who request it by email ([email protected]).

Peter Rubec
 

PeterIMA

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Jaime, I am trying to obtain the pricing paid to collectors: a) recommended by the PFTEA, b) paid by MAC-Cerfied exporters who are members of the PFTEA, and c) by the non-PFTEA exporters. I expect to receive this information soon for selected species. I will email you this information when I receive it. You have to accept (or reject) what I stated until I receive more data.

I do have an export price list that I can provide for one of the companies that is exporting net-caught fish (outside of the MAC program). I will send this to you and others who request it by email ([email protected]).

Peter Rubec
 

Kalkbreath

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Just like American taxes..................Lets not forget that a ten percent increase on 50% LESS fish {I have seen the average daily catch from MAC collectors}..........is still less pesos per day..........{Something the Democrats never seem to fully comprehend}
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mkirda

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Kalkbreath":1hs1b6yj said:
Lets not forget that a ten percent increase on 50% LESS fish {I have seen the average daily catch from MAC collectors}..........is still less pesos per day..........

You've been to Bohol, Kalkbreath?
I am truly curious how you got these numbers and from whom.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

mkirda

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Jaime Baquero":15pr7jcg said:
Peter,

Could you give me examples of the "higher"prices paid by the non-PFTEA exporters to collectors?

Jaime,

To give a characterization: PTFEA members who are MAC certified do not all give a premium to MAC collectors as of my last communication with them all.


Pricing could be characterized:

PTFEA Member 1:
Normal price = X
MAC price = X + 25% (roughly, when adding in shipping subsidies)

PTFEA member 2: No differential.

Non-PTFEA member:
Normal price: 1.5X to up to 2X MAC or Non-MAC net caught.

In USD, the price is still peanuts.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

John_Brandt

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PeterIMA":14tewc58 said:
Jaime,

I find myself in total agreement with you about the 10% pricing issue. It seems that the three exporters who are MAC Certified (Aquarium Habitat, HD Marineworld, and Aquascapes Philippines) have agreed to pay collectors 10% more for net-caught fish from MAC Certified collection sites (Batasan Island and Clarin in the municipality of Tubigon on the Island of Bohol). I believe that they also agreed to pay 50% of the transportation charges for shipping the fish to Manila.

I have been trying to obtain the pricing paid to collectors recommended by the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA). I had the pricing from 1999 but Lolita Ty claims that the pricing paid to all collectors by PFTEA members has increased. However, she refused to provide the price list. Hence, I don't know exactly what the baseline is (exisiting PFTEA pricing) against which the price to MAC Certified collectors is now 10% more. In any event, Lino Alvarez (MAC-Philippines Coordinator) told me it only applies to 7 species coming from the MAC Certified collection sites (Batasan and Clarin).

I agree with you that the pricing paid to collectors in general is very low (e.g., a few pesos for a damelfish). So, the 10% increase probably does not pay for the extra time and effort the collectors must expend to collect with nets, and fill out all the paper work demanded by the MAC. Without actual pricing data, it is difficult to judge whether the pricing is fair or adequate. The fact that other collectors, trained to use nets by IMA or Haribon/OVI, and who participated in the creation of CAMPs with the MAC, now refuse to be part of the MAC certification program indicates to me that the MAC pricing still is not deemed sufficient by the collectors.

Roger Hernandez (Head of the Net-Collectors Association in Palauig NW Luzon) submitted a letter in December 2002 to the MAC complaining that one MAC-Certified exporter associated with the PFTEA had refused to pay more for net-caught fish. He also complained about being cheated by screeners in that exporter's facility. Fish collected to order were refused on delivery to several MAC Certified exporters and many of the fishes were rejected by the screeners who wanted bribes (kickbacks) from the collectors. Peter Scott of the MAC met last week with Roger Hernandez and the head of the collectors association from Bagac, Bataan. Scott told me on the telephone that the meeting went very well in resolving the complaints of the net-collectors. Ferdinand Cruz has informed me that it did not. So, I don't believe the issues were resolved to the satisfaction of the non-certified collectors who participated in the MAC Feasability Study in 2001 and the MAC CAMP program in 2002.

The collectors have formed a Net-Collectors Association. I am told that there are several non-PFTEA export companies now paying higher prices (better than that offered by MAC Certified exporters) to the collectors for marine aquarium fishes from Palauig, Busuanga, Coron, Bagac, and other sites in Mindanao, Leyte, and Bicol. These companies are starting to export 100% net-caught fish at competetive export prices. Further information on these matters will be posted soon on Mary Middlebrook's web site.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec

Peter and all,

I have been making inquiries to the MAC Staff about your comments and "information". I will address your points in the order you gave them:

I find myself in total agreement with you about the 10% pricing issue. It seems that the three exporters who are MAC Certified (Aquarium Habitat, HD Marineworld, and Aquascapes Philippines) have agreed to pay collectors 10% more for net-caught fish from MAC Certified collection sites (Batasan Island and Clarin in the municipality of Tubigon on the Island of Bohol). I believe that they also agreed to pay 50% of the transportation charges for shipping the fish to Manila.

Peter, there are 4 MAC Certified Exporters, not three. In addition to the above there is AquaEx in Cebu. All 4 have agreed to a common pricing structure for each collection area. This pricing will reflect seasonal conditions and will also be subject to reviews in November and June of each year. In addition, for each delivery:

1) A 10% Collectors Coordinator fee will be paid.
2) 25% of the freight costs will be paid.
3) The Exporters will buy back, or reimburse the cost of new styrofoam boxes.

I have been trying to obtain the pricing paid to collectors recommended by the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA). I had the pricing from 1999 but Lolita Ty claims that the pricing paid to all collectors by PFTEA members has increased. However, she refused to provide the price list. Hence, I don't know exactly what the baseline is (exisiting PFTEA pricing) against which the price to MAC Certified collectors is now 10% more. In any event, Lino Alvarez (MAC-Philippines Coordinator) told me it only applies to 7 species coming from the MAC Certified collection sites (Batasan and Clarin).

The pricing agreement covers all species as described in the CAMPs of Batasan and Clarin. The correct information is that the MAC Certified Collectors tabled a pricelist at the meeting in February 2003. Both parties (Exporters and Collectors) were already happy with the pricing on all the species EXCEPT for seven. During the meeting an agreement was reached on those seven.

Aquascapes now pays MAC Certified Collectors according to this agreed pricing structure. Concerning providing you with price lists...Peter, some companies or trade associations may not wish to divulge their price lists to you.

I agree with you that the pricing paid to collectors in general is very low (e.g., a few pesos for a damelfish). So, the 10% increase probably does not pay for the extra time and effort the collectors must expend to collect with nets, and fill out all the paper work demanded by the MAC. Without actual pricing data, it is difficult to judge whether the pricing is fair or adequate. The fact that other collectors, trained to use nets by IMA or Haribon/OVI, and who participated in the creation of CAMPs with the MAC, now refuse to be part of the MAC certification program indicates to me that the MAC pricing still is not deemed sufficient by the collectors.

I'm told the MAC Certified Collectors are very satisfied with the existing arrangements of a seasonally-adjusted price structure, partial payment of freight costs, payment of a Coordinators fee and the "buy-back" of styrofoam boxes. The fee structure is such that it even makes it worth their while to only send 3 or 4 boxes at a time should they wish. This adds to the sustainability of the resource. There are no other collectors who have achieved Certification (i.e. established CAMPs that have been Certified) who "refuse" to participate in the Certification. There are collectors and collector areas that have not yet finalized their ability to comply with the standards, because of this they are not yet Certified.

Roger Hernandez (Head of the Net-Collectors Association in Palauig NW Luzon) submitted a letter in December 2002 to the MAC complaining that one MAC-Certified exporter associated with the PFTEA had refused to pay more for net-caught fish. He also complained about being cheated by screeners in that exporter's facility. Fish collected to order were refused on delivery to several MAC Certified exporters and many of the fishes were rejected by the screeners who wanted bribes (kickbacks) from the collectors.

There is no agreed pricing structure for un-Certified collectors (Palauig at this time). MAC Staff personally witnesses the delivery from every MAC Certified Collection Area in Manila and Cebu at this time to monitor the effectiveness of packing, adherence to CAMP species volumes and screening practices etc. When Palauig finishes with the small number of issues they need to address in order to be Certified, they will also be able to participate in an agreed price structure.

I'm told that MAC has offered to undertake this for Roger Hernandez as well, should he wish.

Peter Scott of the MAC met last week with Roger Hernandez and the head of the collectors association from Bagac, Bataan. Scott told me on the telephone that the meeting went very well in resolving the complaints of the net-collectors. Ferdinand Cruz has informed me that it did not.

MAC has been organizing to meet with Roger for some time, as well as with Mateo. Ferdinand Cruz was present because they are very close friends. Roger said that he has known Ferdinand for 17 years. Ferdinand also acts as their business advisor.

The outcome of the meeting was a success as far as MAC was concerned because they agreed upon a way to move forward; and will be producing an action plan to address the issues raised. Pedro Aguillon (BFAR) and Isabelle Cruz from MAC were also present, and can confirm the progress made.

Roger informed them that he had not been made aware of the February meeting of Collectors and Exporters, and that a price structure had been agreed upon for Batasan and Clarin.

Peter Scott told Roger that he could also agree to his own price structure for Palauig with the MAC Certified Exporters.

So, I don't believe the issues were resolved to the satisfaction of the non-certified collectors who participated in the MAC Feasability Study in 2001 and the MAC CAMP program in 2002.

MAC is only dealing with the collectors that have expressed a desire to become Certified. The meeting a few weeks ago only covered those in Bagac and Palauig.

I'm told the other areas where MAC is working are also happy with how things are progressing. MAC is always happy to talk directly with any group of Collectors to answer any concerns that they may have.

The collectors have formed a Net-Collectors Association. I am told that there are several non-PFTEA export companies now paying higher prices (better than that offered by MAC Certified exporters) to the collectors for marine aquarium fishes from Palauig, Busuanga, Coron, Bagac, and other sites in Mindanao, Leyte, and Bicol. These companies are starting to export 100% net-caught fish at competetive export prices. Further information on these matters will be posted soon on Mary Middlebrook's web site.

Peter, this will result in importers in the USA accepting collection in illegal areas, with no ordering system. It sounds like an invitation to over-harvesting (since there is no CAMP and no control of access or MPAs) and there is no initial or ongoing resource assessment that is scientifically based.

Additionally, all MAC Certified Collectors and Exporters have agreed to unannounced Cyanide Detection Test (CDT) checks by MAC. That will not be the case for this Net-Collectors Association you speak of.

So, I hope this information clears up what appears to be some confusions and deficiencies with what you have learned. Chasing down these facts has certainly taught me a lot about what is going on in the Philippines.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago
 

PeterIMA

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John, Thanks for the information concerning the meetings with Collectors, pricing with MAC-Certified collectors. I certainly hope the collectors' concerns can be dealt with. I have posted these messages because Roger Hernandez and Pedro Aguillon sent me letters in January requesting my assistance. So, I feel I am obligated to press the MAC for information.

Four months is a long time to wait for the MAC to respond to the complaints expressed by the collectors, Ferdianand Cruz, Pedro Aguillon, Joseph Steiger. I am not convinced that the issues are resolved or will be resolved. As far as the non-MAC Certified exporters who are paying more to the collectors, and appear to have almost 100% net-caught fish I have no say concerning how they do business.

It is up to the Philippines government to regulate the aquarium trade. The regulation should apply to all collectors, all middlemen, and all exporters, not just to some MAC-Certified exporters who "agreed" to allow sampling of fish for cyanide testing from their facilities.

I hope that random sampling of all exporter facilities will be implemented along with sampling elsewhere (villages and at sea) similar to what IMA did previously for BFAR. I also hope that cyanide testing will increase to deal with the increasd number of samples. Can you guarantee that this will occur?

Peter Rubec
 

mkirda

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John_Brandt":31pw6asf said:
The collectors have formed a Net-Collectors Association. I am told that there are several non-PFTEA export companies now paying higher prices (better than that offered by MAC Certified exporters) to the collectors for marine aquarium fishes from Palauig, Busuanga, Coron, Bagac, and other sites in Mindanao, Leyte, and Bicol. These companies are starting to export 100% net-caught fish at competetive export prices. Further information on these matters will be posted soon on Mary Middlebrook's web site.

Peter, this will result in importers in the USA accepting collection in illegal areas, with no ordering system. It sounds like an invitation to over-harvesting (since there is no CAMP and no control of access or MPAs) and there is no initial or ongoing resource assessment that is scientifically based.

Collection in illegal areas? Who gave you this information, John?
It is a crock of BS.

Ok, so a group that was trained 10-15-20 years back in nets, and had been collecting since that time with nets, decides to band together - to form a sort of union - and now they are collecting illegally ? Pardon me for laughing my butt off.

The collectors of which you speak have prepared CAMP documents. They have done resource assessments. They have defined no-take zones. All these were done way before Batasan and Tubigon even started the certification process according to the timelines I've been given. They have demanded a better price for their fish, and have gotten it. All outside of MAC.

Now, because of this, you slander their efforts? Either MAC fed you the wrong info, or they know not what their own field people have done.

I'm sure that Renante Ruz, and the developers of the protocols at ASEAN, Reefbase, and ReefCheck would love to hear to hear how their protocols are 'not scientifically based'... Jeez, John, I gave you a copy of the manual that was developed and used for the assessments. You would tell me with a straight face that it is NOT scientifically based?

Additionally, all MAC Certified Collectors and Exporters have agreed to unannounced Cyanide Detection Test (CDT) checks by MAC. That will not be the case for this Net-Collectors Association you speak of.

All fine and dandy, except for that one little pesky detail... That there is no MAC-approved testing method, and that no labs in the Philippines have applied for certification! I could sell you fusion-based power right now too! Just have to wait until I figure out how to build that pesky reactor...

So, I hope this information clears up what appears to be some confusions and deficiencies with what you have learned. Chasing down these facts has certainly taught me a lot about what is going on in the Philippines.

John Brandt

Me too. Things are not always what they appear to be.
I'm really beginning to suspect that your information sources do not have the clearest of motives. You might want to expand your sources beyond the MAC to get a picture that is not quite so 'spun'.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

clarionreef

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Everyone,
If the choice is between all legal, netcaught fish now and fish mixed with MACs certified copperbands and mandarins [ie one% of the supply] I'll take the 100% immediately.
Allowing and tolerating the mixing of cyanide fish in an attempt to phase in to all legal fish one day is a strange approach. Although some are openly supportive of this decompression into legality, what government fisheries could be?
The law says all cyanide fish are illegal now. The law is not based upon Manila fish dealers need for a gradual acceptance of legality. The law is based on the fact that cyanide kills coral habitat and is banned like dynamite fishing. Imagine if you will a "look the other way," 5 year phase out of dynamite fishing in favor of hook and line fishing. Ridiculous when applied to other trades. We all wear blinders when applied to our own.
Cow towing to the irrational mindset of a handful of traders in Manila, are we minimizing the needs and desires of many fisherman and local governments to be legal now!? Sustainable now! Netcaught now!
I don't care if they belong to the Moro Liberation Front and are never , ever certified by a U.S. based program. If they produce netcaught fish now like fisherman already do in the Solomons, Tonga, Fiji, Vanuatu, the Marshalls, Christmas Island, Guam, Australia,Hawaii,Kenya and Mexico, [not to mention all the excellent Philippine divers working in some of those areas] then how is that a bad thing?
Listening to the wrong people on this has set the approach off in the wrong direction. The underlying assumption was that netcaught fish catching is more difficult. The countries fisherman who I just listed beg to differ and were not consulted when this silly notion was imbedded into the MAC approach.
This notion of difficulty was the impression of "lightweight tourist type environmental wannabies" who couldn't catch a bar of soap in the bathtub...much less prescribe commercial policy for commercial fisherman.
I grant that MAC was misled by the wrong people who had a stake in justifying their own experience of failure.
Divers of the Philippines are now uniting and beginning to shake this thing up. Divers are wanting to go netcaught and we have something to criticize them for???
Just who is being served here? Old school exporters? Old school exporters who no longer can control things and who are being invaded by fresher thinking ones who distrust MAC BECAUSE of this affiliation with them? These are not anenomes...they are exactly what we need! The revolting divers who don't want to join the MAC club are like wise not enemies. They represent change in spite of the MAC alliance with the tight and stingy cyanide fish exporters assn.
They cannot reconcile the new reform spirit sweeping the land with MACs go-slow and work within the old system program. EVENTS ARE CHANGING QUICKLY AND THERE IS A SHIFT IN OLD ARRANGEMENT. In business you must read these shifts, rise to these shifts, reconfigure, change and adapt or get left behind.
Local governments in the Philppines are not, repeat not going to have a fraction of patience and tolerance for the "needs of the old exporters" sensitivities as MAC has. It is called the Republic of the Philippines, not the Republic of Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters and things are changing more rapidly then the old mindsets can possibly imagine.
A snowball effect is emerging and local environmental protectionist sentiment will overwhelm the needs of the few exports holding sway over MAC like Rasputin did over the Czar of Russia. This trade can help fisherman if changed to sustainable methodologies...but the shutdowns in many municipalities want conversion now...now or the ban on collecting remains.
Americans...don't think that you alone know whats best for other countries. Often it is our own "economic determinist" policies that aid and abet dictatorships and their mismangement of their own resources. Remember the Philippine tropical fish trade became the way it was under a monsterous 20 year old dictatorship. A new Democracy is finally [ belatedly] finding its way and reevaluating many things.
The changes will come faster and faster now and allegience to old dogmas and alliances must give way to a pro Filipino ethic... and not just a pro-old exporter one.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE OF THE PHILIPPINES and as soon as possible. Steve...AMDA president

PS.We should embace this tide and ride it, or drown.
 

John_Brandt

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mkirda":25olt7z7 said:
John_Brandt":25olt7z7 said:
The collectors have formed a Net-Collectors Association. I am told that there are several non-PFTEA export companies now paying higher prices (better than that offered by MAC Certified exporters) to the collectors for marine aquarium fishes from Palauig, Busuanga, Coron, Bagac, and other sites in Mindanao, Leyte, and Bicol. These companies are starting to export 100% net-caught fish at competetive export prices. Further information on these matters will be posted soon on Mary Middlebrook's web site.

Peter, this will result in importers in the USA accepting collection in illegal areas, with no ordering system. It sounds like an invitation to over-harvesting (since there is no CAMP and no control of access or MPAs) and there is no initial or ongoing resource assessment that is scientifically based.

Collection in illegal areas? Who gave you this information, John?
It is a crock of BS.

Ok, so a group that was trained 10-15-20 years back in nets, and had been collecting since that time with nets, decides to band together - to form a sort of union - and now they are collecting illegally ? Pardon me for laughing my butt off.

The collectors of which you speak have prepared CAMP documents. They have done resource assessments. They have defined no-take zones. All these were done way before Batasan and Tubigon even started the certification process according to the timelines I've been given. They have demanded a better price for their fish, and have gotten it. All outside of MAC.

Now, because of this, you slander their efforts? Either MAC fed you the wrong info, or they know not what their own field people have done.

I'm sure that Renante Ruz, and the developers of the protocols at ASEAN, Reefbase, and ReefCheck would love to hear to hear how their protocols are 'not scientifically based'... Jeez, John, I gave you a copy of the manual that was developed and used for the assessments. You would tell me with a straight face that it is NOT scientifically based?

Additionally, all MAC Certified Collectors and Exporters have agreed to unannounced Cyanide Detection Test (CDT) checks by MAC. That will not be the case for this Net-Collectors Association you speak of.

All fine and dandy, except for that one little pesky detail... That there is no MAC-approved testing method, and that no labs in the Philippines have applied for certification! I could sell you fusion-based power right now too! Just have to wait until I figure out how to build that pesky reactor...

So, I hope this information clears up what appears to be some confusions and deficiencies with what you have learned. Chasing down these facts has certainly taught me a lot about what is going on in the Philippines.

John Brandt

Me too. Things are not always what they appear to be.
I'm really beginning to suspect that your information sources do not have the clearest of motives. You might want to expand your sources beyond the MAC to get a picture that is not quite so 'spun'.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

I think you might need to take a few steps back and look at what is really going on. Look at the forest as well as the trees.

"Ok, so a group that was trained 10-15-20 years back in nets, and had been collecting since that time with nets, decides to band together - to form a sort of union - and now they are collecting illegally? Pardon me for laughing my butt off. "

Mike, I would suggest that you talk to Ferdinand Cruz about this. It is a fact that aquarium trade collection is an illegal activity in the Philippines in many areas. Ferdinand himself, had to obtain a special ordinance to permit the collectors of Bagac to collect in that area. I'm told that this ordinance has a term of only 9 months.

Lino Alvarez obtained a Memorandum Of Understanding with the Palawan Council for Sustainable Development to lift the ban on ornamental collection in Palawan for those involved in the MAC program.

MAC Certification cannot condone any illegal act(s), which is why it takes time to work with a Local Government Unit to lift a ban. This precludes some areas from Certification if a ban cannot be lifted.

"The collectors of which you speak have prepared CAMP documents. They have done resource assessments. They have defined no-take zones. All these were done way before Batasan and Tubigon even started the certification process according to the timelines I've been given. They have demanded a better price for their fish, and have gotten it. All outside of MAC.

Now, because of this, you slander their efforts? Either MAC fed you the wrong info, or they know not what their own field people have done."


Mike, where are these CAMPs? Can you circulate them to us? Or are they mysteriously unavailable? :roll:

"I'm sure that Renante Ruz, and the developers of the protocols at ASEAN, Reefbase, and ReefCheck would love to hear to hear how their protocols are 'not scientifically based'... Jeez, John, I gave you a copy of the manual that was developed and used for the assessments. You would tell me with a straight face that it is NOT scientifically based?"

Mike, of course the MACTRAQ protocol is scientifically-based. The point is (as checked with Renante) that MACTRAQ has never been applied in the areas that you are talking about. Those areas were not even subject to a rudimentary assessment under the MAC Feasibility Study.

Additionally, all MAC Certified Collectors and Exporters have agreed to unannounced Cyanide Detection Test (CDT) checks by MAC. That will not be the case for this Net-Collectors Association you speak of. John Brandt

"All fine and dandy, except for that one little pesky detail... That there is no MAC-approved testing method, and that no labs in the Philippines have applied for certification! I could sell you fusion-based power right now too! Just have to wait until I figure out how to build that pesky reactor..."

Wow, and I thought Steve Robinson was the only one who used funky analogical ridicule around here :wink:

You are right, but I believe MAC will approve a CDT by the end of May 2003. I sure do hope that these "100% net caught" areas you speak of will also agree to be part of that program. Will they embrace close scrutiny for the use of sodium cyanide?

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago
 

clarionreef

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OK John,
Here's another one. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...Humpty Dumpty answered to Paul.
All the MAC paperwork and all of MACs men, couldn't put Humpty together again.
As the great "aquarium trade token" on the board John, you have an impossible job to do. Randy, former AMDA president and representative to MAC burned himself out defending MAC against all reason. John Tullock retired, Bob Fenner and Eric Borneman don't ever bother any more. Mary M. resigned as did Ferdie, the head trainer.
Poor Lino Alvarez , MAC country coordinator is in the hospital today from "stress"induced problems. .
I worry about you John. How are you feeling?
Your friend, Steve
 

clarionreef

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Now, now,
Mikes on to something there with the fusion based power analogy.
First ...
start with the finished product, fusion based power.
Second...
sell it aggressively
Third...
try and figure out how to make everyone want it.
Fourth...
fight off all the silly energy experts who say that you haven't done it yet.
Fifth...and last...
quietly try and figure out how to actually provide it...

Interesting working backwards backwards approach. Conclusion first...force fit results last.
Hey, maybe they're on to something here! Ya think?
Amazing if it works!
Steve
Steve
 

PeterIMA

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To John Brandt,

As far as I know it is not illegal to collect marine ornamental fish with nets in any of the areas where Ferdinand Cruz conducted Feasability Studies and CAMP trainings for the MAC. The municipalities are the ones who have the power under the Fisheries Act to open or close their waters for fishing or mariculture. The ban on exports of marines from Palawan by the Palawan Council for Sustainable Development was a ban on exports by air on Philippine Airlines (not on fishing in municipal waters). It is still possible to ship fish out of the Calmian Islands by boat.

You imply that there was no CAMPs done in municipalitiess like Palauig, Busuanga, Bagac, and on the Island of Coron. I have copies of these documents. Lets trade these CAMPs with those supposedly prepared for Batasan (municipality of Tubigon) and Clarin (municipality of Tangaran). Then lets look to see which ones have underwater surveys conducted in a rigorous scientific fashion. I agree with Mike Kirda. We know that the municipalities where Ferdinand helped prepared CAMPs had underwater surveys conducted using sound scientific methods. My understanding is the MAC has now adopted the Rapid Appraisal Protocol (RAP) method included in the MAQTRAC document (rather than the more detailed underwater survey methods recommended in MAQTRAC). The RAPs were done after the MAC certified Batasan and Clarin. The RAP documentation sent to me by Craig Shulman of ReefCheck is described in one paragraph. It does not compare with the methods used by the collectors and Peace Corps workers in the areas where Ferdinand and the MAC training team operated. It was used because the MAC had not developed or adopted any official survey methods (during 2002) to support their Ecosystem Fishieries Management (EFM) core standards.

"Collectors Manual For Collection Area Assessment" (2002) published by Renante A. Ruz, Ferdinand Cruz and Alexandra Didoha, published by International Marinelife Alliance, and the US Peace Corps with funding from USAID.

The Collectors Manual used timed swims and belt transect methods previously published by the following:

English et a. 1994. Asean-Australian Coral Reef Monotoring Protocol.

IIIR. 1998. Participatory Methods in Community-based Resource Assessment 3 Vols. International Institute of Rural Reconstruction, Silang, Cavite, Philippines.

McManus et al. 1997. Reefbase Aquanet Survey Manual, Intenational Center for Living Aquatic Resources Management (ICLARM). Ser. 18, 61 pp. (I have read this manual which is well done that I obtained from ICLARM).

Schmitz et al. 1998. Rover Diver Fish Method.

I agree with Mike Kirda, you and the MAC are spreading "BS"

Peter Rubec
 

mkirda

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John_Brandt":egcu7d65 said:
Mike, I would suggest that you talk to Ferdinand Cruz about this. It is a fact that aquarium trade collection is an illegal activity in the Philippines in many areas. Ferdinand himself, had to obtain a special ordinance to permit the collectors of Bagac to collect in that area. I'm told that this ordinance has a term of only 9 months.

But permission was obtained, John. This is not illegal as you stated. That is a big difference.

Lino Alvarez obtained a Memorandum Of Understanding with the Palawan Council for Sustainable Development to lift the ban on ornamental collection in Palawan for those involved in the MAC program.

MAC Certification cannot condone any illegal act(s), which is why it takes time to work with a Local Government Unit to lift a ban. This precludes some areas from Certification if a ban cannot be lifted.

It is not just MAC that is/was involved in this either. There were at least three or four other NGO's that they (the native tribes) worked with. The municipalities have opened up the waters to collection based on the work that was done (CAMP, Resource assessments, net trainings). The Calamain Islands are a strange place, John- until you have been there and seen how it works and have spoken to the tribes there, I daresay most wouldn't understand it.

Mike, where are these CAMPs? Can you circulate them to us? Or are they mysteriously unavailable? :roll:

You come over to my house, you can read them yourself, John. I daresay that is a far better offer than I got from the MAC in trying to read the Batasan Island CAMP document. I will not send it out electronically as I do not have permission from the collectors to post their work. Paul, David and Silvia should take note of this fact.

Mike, of course the MACTRAQ protocol is scientifically-based. The point is (as checked with Renante) that MACTRAQ has never been applied in the areas that you are talking about. Those areas were not even subject to a rudimentary assessment under the MAC Feasibility Study.

I beg to differ with you. Come by and read the assessments- The results are in the CAMP documents themselves.

Wow, and I thought Steve Robinson was the only one who used funky analogical ridicule around here :wink:

Not ridicule, John. I respect you too much for that. There was a commercial a year or two back of Movie execs talking about marketing- they had the whole thing planned out... Then at the end, they realized... Oh, we don't have a script yet. Oh, we can hammer something out in a couple of weeks... The normal adage used to express this is "Putting the cart before the horse." That was what I was trying to convey.

You are right, but I believe MAC will approve a CDT by the end of May 2003. I sure do hope that these "100% net caught" areas you speak of will also agree to be part of that program. Will they embrace close scrutiny for the use of sodium cyanide?

I believe that they will, John. The question is, will the exporters?

How will this go down, John? Will it be someone walking into Marivi's place and pointing out a dozen fish?
Will they be doing just MAC-certified, or the entire operation?
Will they be going after fish that are traditionally collected with cyanide to begin with, or will they stick with testing fish that are not traditionally caught that way because 'sodyum' is too expensive to waste on them?
Most importantly, what will be the penalties for the collector and the exporter if the fish test positive?

I see the forest, John. I see the trees. I see the soil and the leaves and the beetles and the birds.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

mkirda

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PeterIMA":3l1elo0d said:
I agree with Mike Kirda, you and the MAC are spreading "BS"

Peter Rubec

Peter,

I don't think we should make this personal with John.
I think he is only telling us the information MAC has provided him.

The truth is, we are all about 90% in agreement, and are futzing over the other 10%. Granted, that 10% is very important.
Overall, I know that John's outlook matches my own very closely.
If MAC can get the details right, and show progress behind them, it would be best for all.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

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