How can you say your fish are "clean" ?

[John_Brandt]

Mary and Jenn,

You have no real way of knowing that your fish were net-caught. I'm not talking about species that are never caught with cyanide, but rather, the others. Your source for these fish does not know that they were caught with nets in any real sense.

I'm wondering if you are doing a disservice to the industry reform effort by selling fish as "net-caught", when all you can truly base that on is by trust and hopes. Overall health and low mortality may not be enough circumstantial evidence to support the contention of "net-caught", as highly-skilled use of cyanide can probably produce those results.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[MaryHM]

John,

When you buy from the sources that the only real net trainer in the Philippines tells you to buy from (because he has a great deal of influence and respect from the collectors that HE has personally trained), then you can be 99% sure. And that's what I state on my website. 99% sure. A hell of a lot more sure than if I buy from some of these "MAC Certified" companies that have a long history of denying and dealing with cyanide caught fish. Ferdinand's training was good enough for MAC while he was on their team. Now that he has "revolted", he's not good enough anymore? Interesting.

 

[MaryHM]

And another thing:

I can also tell by tracking my mortalities. Generally hardly anything. I can also tell by reports from my customers- low DOA and DAA. I can also tell by looking at the stocklists. I understand that someone like yourself who doesn't directly import from overseas probably isn't aware of what the stocks read like from the Philippines on a weekly basis. When Marivi has 2 clown triggers, 16 blue tangs, etc... and other suppliers have hundreds, well, you figure it out. On my order I received 2 days ago, I got 2 clown triggers and 1 whole blue tang. WOW. I'm really in business now.

 

[MaryHM]

Your source for these fish does not know that they were caught with nets in any real sense.

Highly interesting comment there, John. Especially since it is no secret that I buy from Aquarium Habitat- a MAC certified exporter! So just to clarify, you claim that the MAC certified exporters have no real sense that their fish are caught with nets? If this is true, then why does MAC claim they do??

 

[John_Brandt]

Mary,

MAC can only make claims about MAC Certified fish. You know that. Stop playing games Mary. Aquarium Habitat relies on "trust" for their non-MAC Certified fish, just the same as you do.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[MaryHM]

Luckily I have the right to play games with you if I please- it's all in good fun, just like your comments to some other people in this forum, right John?

And isn't trust a main part of the whole thing? I trust suppliers who have been net caught from day 1. I don't trust "pseudo-reformists" who have been supporting the cyanide trade for years and have all of the sudden "seen the light" because they see validation in a MAC sticker. I trust net trainers who are in the field EVERYDAY. Not some certifying agency who may be there once a year if even that.

Also, you didn't address mortality, available, etc... Do you have a comment on these things?

 

[John_Brandt]

But Mary, why do you use the number 99% ? What formula did you use to arrive at that? Did you round up? Was your figure 98.6% ?

Why do you use numbers that smell like vanilla?

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[flameangel1]

Just a comment on John B's message above--
Having read/listened/researched/talked to and about this whole MAC "Vanilla project"---the comment to Mary above was very rude and seems to follow the general idea of "forcing" the public/industry to ONLY buy MAC certified animals.
Fine- IF that certification meant a DAMN thing !!!!!
But it does NOT !!!!

This whole garbage about MAC even knowing if an animal is clean to begin with-then is certified or not certified depending on the chain of certified or not certified retailers and whether the percentages of Doa are up or down due to shipping problems etc-- makes NO sense at all !!!!!

How an animal can be certified one day, then not certified a few days later and then certified again if the "numbers look the way MAC wants" is beyond me !!!!
There are so many problems/discrepancies with the MAC "certification" at this point, that the whole thing is a laughing stock !!!!!!

Do I trust my wild caught and captive bred wholesalers-YES--do I trust MAC - a resounding , NO !!!!!

 

[naesco]

Flame angel, Mary, John, I am a customer so you might want to know what I want and what I am thinking.

I want cyanide free fish.
If I go to www.seacrop.com , I immediately have the feeling that I am dealing with an honest cyanide free supplier.
If I go to any Vancouver lfs (none are certified) and buy a fish that they get from seacare (gets from the same supplier as Mary) or coast mountain (a M certified supplier), I am happy to feel that my purchase is not contribution to the criminal cyanide destruction of the fish and the reefs.

The situation is not perfect but every day in every way it is getting better and better.
When the CDT begins in the Phillippines shortly, and the result are posted, we will all get some answers.

In the near future, when the CDT has run for a while and some of the corrective ideas are incorporated to ensure a random, fair test, fish bought by reefers from MAC certified LFS and online stores and from suppliers like seacrop and seacare will also be tested.
And we will all know the results. And they will be posted here and on other boards.

 

[clarionreef]

Goodness me,
If the preceding threads were a boxing match...I'd say that this Middlebrook character won every round.
Surely the other camp has more in its arsenal then a few nit picky jabs!
Maybe they'll do better in later rounds.
Just a cold, dispassionate observation.
Fight fan

 

[John_Brandt]

Just a comment on John B's message above--
Having read/listened/researched/talked to and about this whole MAC "Vanilla project"---the comment to Mary above was very rude and seems to follow the general idea of "forcing" the public/industry to ONLY buy MAC certified animals.
Fine- IF that certification meant a DAMN thing !!!!!
But it does NOT !!!!

This whole garbage about MAC even knowing if an animal is clean to begin with-then is certified or not certified depending on the chain of certified or not certified retailers and whether the percentages of Doa are up or down due to shipping problems etc-- makes NO sense at all !!!!!

How an animal can be certified one day, then not certified a few days later and then certified again if the "numbers look the way MAC wants" is beyond me !!!!
There are so many problems/discrepancies with the MAC "certification" at this point, that the whole thing is a laughing stock !!!!!!

Do I trust my wild caught and captive bred wholesalers-YES--do I trust MAC - a resounding , NO !!!!!

Rude? Oh, I shouldn't be rude. After all, nobody has been rude to me here :roll:

BTW Judy, you and I haven't met. I didn't see you or your retail store on the AMDA member list; why is that?

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[flameangel1]

naesco,
We dealers want cyanide free fish also !!!! And some of us do the best we can to GET them also.
But, unless we want to bury our heads in the sand and believe certain vanilla hype , like you seem to, there is not and can not be a definate certainty of anything like this happening in the near future .
You see and BELIEVE the hype from MAC..
I see and deal with the reality of this industry from ALL sides !!!!!

By the way, I really dont understand how anyone can buy off the internet, sight unseen and believe whatever some unknown person tells them !!
I need to see the animal eat, know it looks/acts healthy-see the condition of the tanks it lives in and how the owner treats said animal !!!
But then again, I am an uncertified retailer , so what do I know ????

 

[John_Brandt]

naesco,
We dealers want cyanide free fish also !!!! And some of us do the best we can to GET them also.
But, unless we want to bury our heads in the sand and believe certain vanilla hype , like you seem to, there is not and can not be a definate certainty of anything like this happening in the near future .
You see and BELIEVE the hype from MAC..
I see and deal with the reality of this industry from ALL sides !!!!!

By the way, I really dont understand how anyone can buy off the internet, sight unseen and believe whatever some unknown person tells them !! I need to see the animal eat, know it looks/acts healthy-see the condition of the tanks it lives in and how the owner treats said animal !!!
But then again, I am an uncertified retailer , so what do I know ????

Judy,

I spent 3 days in the water with the MAC Certified Collectors at Bohol, Philippines. They do not use cyanide. The only hype is what's flowing from your typing fingers.

You say, "By the way, I really dont understand how anyone can buy off the internet, sight unseen and believe whatever some unknown person tells them !!
I need to see the animal eat, know it looks/acts healthy-see the condition of the tanks it lives in and how the owner treats said animal !!!" Now you are talking about SeaCrop customers. Mary may have a few nasty words for you.



John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[flameangel1]

John_Brandt,
No John, you do not see my name or my shop on the current AMDA list !!!!
I was and it was, on there from the beginning until last year though.
And if you had read this forum over the last few years, you would know that I resigned from AMDA (as a directer), because of the tactics being used by last years president !!!!!!!
I could not be part of an organization that I no longer believed in, although I felt very bad about John's origonal hopes/dreams for that organization and its failure to follow said hopes and dreams !!!!

 

[John_Brandt]

John_Brandt,
No John, you do not see my name or my shop on the current AMDA list !!!!
I was and it was, on there from the beginning until last year though.
And if you had read this forum over the last few years, you would know that I resigned from AMDA (as a directer), because of the tactics being used by last years president !!!!!!!
I could not be part of an organization that I no longer believed in, although I felt very bad about John's origonal hopes/dreams for that organization and its failure to follow said hopes and dreams !!!!

The new President of AMDA is an active and vocal advocate of industry reform. There are things that you can do to improve the situation besides selling fish that you feel were caught with nets.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[flameangel1]

comment,, In relation to Mary having a few choice words for me-about my comment about buying off the internet--
Well, I buy from Mary, known her a long time and KNOW her honesty !!!!
She knows how I feel about buying off the internet !!!
Mary and I have a LONG term relationship-- so yes, I do know how she keeps her animals !!!!!!

But, how does Naesco or any other hobbyist who deals with buying off the internet know her or any other internet dealer ????

(By the way, I forgot that was the name of your online business anyway-sorry , Mary..)

 

[flameangel1]

John,,
on your note here--

I spent 3 days in the water with the MAC Certified Collectors at Bohol, Philippines. They do not use cyanide.

I have been a retailer for over ten years now-- if you want to tell me that YOU personally saw every fish collected, that I have ever sold over that period of time AND you followed that same fish personally, all the way to my shop--then I would believe that it was 100% clean !!!!!

Until that happens, I will just do what I have always done.
Try my best to deal with the cleanest wild caught wholesaler and do my best to convert my customers over to tank raised only !!!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

In the near future, when the CDT has run for a while and some of the corrective ideas are incorporated to ensure a random, fair test, fish bought by reefers from MAC certified LFS and online stores and from suppliers like seacrop and seacare will also be tested.
And we will all know the results. And they will be posted here and on other boards.

Naesco--

You do realize that the fish don't make it through the test.

 

[MaryHM]

Wow! Go to a baseball game for a few hours and this is what I come back to!!

This is where I feel I need to give the new moderator a little advice.

1. People are being rude to you? Imagine that. People have been rude to me in this forum as well when I was moderator. I did my best not to be rude back and alienate them and other readers. Also, you should have expected it coming in. If you know the nature of this board, you would realize that it is very suspicious and questioning of MAC. You came in representing MAC. You asked for it, bro!

2. I understand you haven't been a member of this forum for very long, John, but you should know that attacking specific businesses is a big fat no-no. A huge hairy 500lb gorilla no-no!! By starting a thread that had a primary purpose of questioning me and Jenn's business practices, you definitely stepped over the line. Now, I don't mind because I have nothing to hide and am comfortable discussing my business practices. However, there have been other threads where businesses got extremely upset because someone questioned their practices. So in the future I do recommend that you refrain from such activity. Other people aren't near as accomodating as I am about this.

 

[John_Brandt]

Mary,

Why would you feel so comfortable attacking MAC, but so uncomfortable when someone criticizes your company?

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago